Mead using winemaking techniques?

[lockwood1956]

Have you tasted them and does the one without acid taste bland?

Yes it does, but thats because there is no backbone to it from the acid...................hmmmmmm



I thought this would be a good experiment, but it has posed more questions than it has answered



plarggh!

[Mamgiowl]

That's what I thought.

[NorthernWiner]

But yeast (so I understood) like an acid environ

I don't know that they like an acidic environment, but they tolerate it better than other organisms. By the same token, too much alkalinity will stun them just as readily.

It would be interesting to try a similar experiment with a grape must. I've never done a side-by-side comparison, but my hunch is that fermentation would progress quicker in a 4.0 pH must than one at 3.0.

[fatbloke]

This just highlights what seems to be the difference between accurate info and some of the apparent "dogma" that surrounds this issue.

I'd spent some time following advice/suggestions in respect of monitoring pH levels - particularly with my recent "heather honey" batch.

You have no idea how much I was "thrown" by finding that the pH of the must (minus the suggested 1 tsp of citric in the recipe) gave me a reading of 6.3 (ish).

Only to find that there are the 2 conflicting schools of thought on this i.e. the "acid additions" (pre-ferment) and the "acid corrections" post-ferment.

Now I don't know that much about bread making, but as far as I can see (looking at recipes in Clares' cookbooks) that bread recipes don't appear to have much in the way of ingredients that acidify, yet the recipes for wines (or meads specifically in my case) often seem to recommend that acid is added to the must on a "pre-ferment" basis.

So OK, what's my point ?

Well, apart from the slightly different "breeds" of yeast used, (CO2 producing as a main requirement, as opposed to the alcohol producing requirements of "wine" yeasts - not forgetting flavour profiles as well of course), it begs the question of why should I need to add acid before the ferment ?

Afterall, additions to bread need to be made before the dough is cooked for the obvious reason of difficulty in adding other flavouring ingredients afterward (it's solid ). Whereas modifying flavour after the ferment doesn't really present a problem with wine.

This isn't to besmirch the views or opinions of those who've had success with acid additions, but to ask a more direct "What's wrong with waiting until after the ferment" ?

I mean, didn't "john" ask or comment on the same thing a couple of months ago ? but received some opposition to that view ?

So far, all this has really achieved is to confuse me even more and add time/money to testing of batches to see what might be the best actual method i.e. my stress/confusion/panic on getting a high pH with the heather honey batch means that I've now really got to replicate it so I get that same high pH, but then run the ferment without the acid additions I felt bound to use in the hope of following "current convention".

Oh and on previewing this post, it also reminded me of the question of aeration.

Yes I can see the point giving a must a damn good shake, prior to pitching the yeast, but don't quite follow why it might be necessary/desirable to shake/stir/bubble it twice daily for X amount of time during the ferment (yes I've seen stuff about mixing in a bucket initially, then transferring to a DJ/Carboy/Fermenting Jar etc), so does this mean that I should really be making the initial must/ferment in a bucket (presumably to aid the ease of aeration) ? Only then moving it to a DJ later on (at what stage would this be best)??

I'm certainly not going to the extremes of obtaining a source of O2 to bubble it

Any guidance/suggestions/advice etc is always appreciated

[lockwood1956]

Well....
this little experiment has made me think again about certain issues......


the must that has the acid added, whilst fermenting slower.....tastes a whole lot better, and my gut feeling is that I like the idea of the flavour profile being right during ferment (no scientific reason why) it will be interesting to see if the other batch's flavour profile will change and become the same as batch with acid (its very very bland right now) when acid is added afterwards.

The aeration during the ferment (by stirring) certainly seems to pep it up massively, and not just CO2 release, the must ferments more vigorously afterwards.

I added some more nutrient (Tronozymol) last night, and both batches fizzing away merrily again, although the one without acid is more vigorous......


I have finished reading the compleat meadmaker....a great read, and in there Ken is advising additions of acid AND tannin post ferment, as you say John, it goes against the way I make wine, but is it wrong? I suspect not, but for newbie mead makers it certainly presents a challenge in terms of two quite different methods, both of which by the way, seem to work.

There is some merit in having a slower ferment for a white wine, so this would surely hold the same for a white mead?

random ramblings, yes, but I'm intrigued now, I also am very wary about this starting gravity being high, Ken makes the point that he wants an SG drop of around 100, so if he wants a finishing gravity of 1.030 he starts at 1.130, I am not sure I like this idea....I would much prefer to start at 1.080 to 1.090 and feed any extra sugar required (in the form of more honey) as the ferment progressed, this (i feel) gives me more control of the process as it ferments, which gives me less chance of stuck ferments due to sugar content being too much for the yeasties, not trying to contradict Ken here, just thats not my preferred way of fermenting.

However if you have a must produced from quality ingredients that has the correct nutrient content, and you get a vigorous starter going and have the must fermenting at the right temperature.....all should be well

Ken recommends re-hydrating dry yeasts and making a starter from liquid yeasts.....nothing wrong with that, but I ALWAYS prepare a starter first, (adding a little of the must to it also) it serves two purposes, it lets me see the yeast ids good, and I know for sure it is working, and it means the ferment gets off to a great start.

more to follow
cheers
Bob

[NorthernWiner]

I like the idea of the flavour profile being right during ferment (no scientific reason why)

I agree completely with this, Bob.

I like to believe that making wine is much like cooking. You try to get it as close to correct as you can early on, so that all of the flavors have a chance to integrate during the "cooking" (or fermentation) process.

However, anyone that cooks knows that you always end up having to make a few tweaks at the end to correct the seasoning.

If that makes sense.

[happymondays]

I also am very wary about this starting gravity being high, Ken makes the point that he wants an SG drop of around 100, so if he wants a finishing gravity of 1.030 he starts at 1.130, I am not sure I like this idea....I would much prefer to start at 1.080 to 1.090 and feed any extra sugar required (in the form of more honey) as the ferment progressed, this (i feel) gives me more control of the process as it ferments, which gives me less chance of stuck ferments due to sugar content being too much for the yeasties,

Bob I looked into the high SG's for mead as some of the US guys are starting some meads as high as 1.140 with ferments starting and finishing with no foreseen problems, so again the confusion starts, so it does seem that meads have different
rules and methods to wine making or maybe opinions.
It looks like the more nutrient rich must you have the higher the SG you can have like darker honey and fruit, fruit juice. With lighter honey and traditional meads a lower SG is recommended from the lads over the pond, but they use SG's around 1.120 regular.

It does seem all very confusing, I suppose there is more than one way just a case of picking one that works ok,

Regards Scott......

[rjb222]

I agree completely with this, Bob.

You try to get it as close to correct as you can early on, so that all of the flavors have a chance to integrate during the "cooking" (or fermentation) process.

This is why I employ the taste method as well as the testing equipment. My theory being that as I develop records which I keep and make notes of tastes as things progress in time I will be able to taste a must and know what it is I need to tweak to get consistent quality or what i want to change to bring out different flavors.

[lockwood1956]

Conclusions?

Well as these two musts approach the end of ferment, I think that (for me) the best way forward in the future is to Employ the methods I use for wine making, i.e. Acid additions to get the flavour profile that I require at the start, and having the must start at an S.G. of around 1.080 and managing the ferment towards the end, with extra honey additions as deemed necessary.

This will work for me because I am very rigorous about temperature control, testing and really take a lot of time to take care of my yeasties

It will result in a slower ferment, but thats not something I consider a problem

The downside to this method is that perhaps the newbie mead maker doesn't have the knowledge yet, or take the time and care required. So problems could occur.

[fatbloke]

-----%<-----
The downside to this method is that perhaps the newbie mead maker doesn't have the knowledge yet, or take the time and care required. So problems could occur.

Ha ha! "Nail, hammer and head" come to mind here .

I was thinking that I might re-do the basic mead making tutorial next time I make a batch to reflect the opposing ideas so any potential mead makers can see that they have a choice of method and decide for themselves which one would be easier to follow - does that seem a good suggestion/idea ?

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

yes it does

[lockwood1956]

As these two meads draw to a conclusion, I spotted frozen rasberries at farmfoods for 79p...


so they are now melomels!

tinker tinker....tweak tweak

all the fun of the fair!

[lockwood1956]

Update:

The one with the acid added at the start has extraced twice the colour from the raspberries, and is better for it.

I haven't added the acid to the one without yet, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out, I dare say acid additions "might" get it to taste a little more like the other batch, but the one with the acid in at the start has a much more pronounced raspberry profile, due no doubt to the acid helping to leech out colour and flavour compounds from the fruit.

fascinating stuff though....isn't this hobby just great?

regards
bob

[Tuco]

Making my first 'mead' tonight, I'll let you know how it turns out

[lockwood1956]

Excellent

Acid additions at the start works better for me