Problem or not ? What's next (winter mead)?

[fatbloke]

OK, so a couple of months ago I made a batch of "Winter Mead (Melo/Meth)".

The recipe is basically a mead, but it uses these ingredients

6 to 9 lbs honey - I used 9 lbs of clover
6 whole cloves
6 whole allspice (crushed)
3 2-inch cinnamon sticks
1 gallon apple juice
1 gallon cranberry juice
water to top off
Now since I've been checking it, it seems that at some point I split it into 3 x 1 gallon glass demi-johns but 2 of them seem to have stopped at 1.010 and the third at 1.020

I can't recall what yeast I used, whether it was lalvin 71B or something else - if it was the 71B there should be some residual sweetness.

Anyway, I though it best to try to restart fermentation - using the jar that was sitting at 1.020 - I had to use Redstart Champagne yeast as I'd used my last packet of EC1118 when restarting my "Tinned Strawberry" (which seems to have restarted fine - using the "Stuck Ferment" thread instructions).

Unfortunately the winter mead hasn't restarted. Why, I don't know.

I've got plenty of Lalvin K1V - and as far as I can tell (thanks to Keiths list of yeast profiles), I could just as easily (in theory) re-restart it with that.

Would that be ok to do that i.e. to restart it a second time ? Or should I just "bite the bullet" and finish racking it ready for bulk ageing (not that it'd need that long as it's not bad tasteing now)?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Now I know I'm nagging.......but



Why are you expecting residual sweetness? 71B-1122 will easily stretch to 16% ABV (Lalvin claim 14%, but it Will go higher)

what was the starting gravity?
I suspect that at 3 lbs honey per gallon, and the apple juice and the cranberry juice your starting SG was way too high, and that this will not restart for the alc content has killed the yeast.

are you using your hydrometer John (at the start) or just following recipes?
you seem to get more than your fair share of stuck ferments and I think its because you are not starting at the right SG, more alcohol, doesnt make better wine, nor does it help it to age easily.

Decide what you are trying to make at the outset, and adjust your must accordingly, 1 gallon apple juice + 1 gallon cranberry + 1 gal water would likely give a start SG of 1.040 add to that 9 lbs honey your start SG was likely 1.140, you were lucky to even get it started....never mind get it to finish.

I think keeping notes will help you too, especially temperature, yeast type, starting gravity etc, it is tragic to make good wine, then because you were without good notes, not be able to repeat it, its also a good way to build up a library of techniques, and you can refer back to it.

[medpretzel]

I've got plenty of Lalvin K1V - and as far as I can tell (thanks to Keiths list of yeast profiles), I could just as easily (in theory) re-restart it with that.

Would that be ok to do that i.e. to restart it a second time ? Or should I just "bite the bullet" and finish racking it ready for bulk ageing (not that it'd need that long as it's not bad tasteing now)?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

regards

JtFB

What are you trying to accomplish? Higher alc?

Each wine yeast has a certain alcohol limitation. It doesn't really matter what your SG is now, in my opinion, because you also have alcohol in it. The alcohol is hindering the yeast from working. I'm not really sure if the other yeast would do much, unless you decide to make another batch with lower alcohol and blend.

As Bob has asked, what was the beginning SG?

Just my opinion,

Dani

[fatbloke]

Now I know I'm nagging.......but



Why are you expecting residual sweetness? 71B-1122 will easily stretch to 16% ABV (Lalvin claim 14%, but it Will go higher)

what was the starting gravity?
I suspect that at 3 lbs honey per gallon, and the apple juice and the cranberry juice your starting SG was way too high, and that this will not restart for the alc content has killed the yeast.

are you using your hydrometer John (at the start) or just following recipes?
you seem to get more than your fair share of stuck ferments and I think its because you are not starting at the right SG, more alcohol, doesnt make better wine, nor does it help it to age easily.

Decide what you are trying to make at the outset, and adjust your must accordingly, 1 gallon apple juice + 1 gallon cranberry + 1 gal water would likely give a start SG of 1.040 add to that 9 lbs honey your start SG was likely 1.140, you were lucky to even get it started....never mind get it to finish.

I think keeping notes will help you too, especially temperature, yeast type, starting gravity etc, it is tragic to make good wine, then because you were without good notes, not be able to repeat it, its also a good way to build up a library of techniques, and you can refer back to it.

Ha ha! as ever, you're correct Bob. I just seem to forget to make the notes when I've finished making a batch.

I was following the recipe in that instance and while it doesn't taste too bad, I was just starting to get myself into the habit of using the hydrometer, though I did forget to take a starting measurement.

What are you trying to accomplish? Higher alc?

Each wine yeast has a certain alcohol limitation. It doesn't really matter what your SG is now, in my opinion, because you also have alcohol in it. The alcohol is hindering the yeast from working. I'm not really sure if the other yeast would do much, unless you decide to make another batch with lower alcohol and blend.

As Bob has asked, what was the beginning SG?

Just my opinion,

Dani

All opinions are much appreciated. I was just using the SG as a reference and seeing if I could get down below 1.000 or not.

I've somewhat foolishly not been in the habit of taking a OG measurement and hence I can't work out if it's got as far as 14 or 16 % abv or not - I was hoping that I might be able to restart it to bash the current measurement down a bit further.

The apple and cranberry juice would be quite fruity tasting anyway, hence whatever alcohol is there is masked a fair amount.

So I'm thinking that I'll probably not bother trying to restart it, but mix the whole batch back together to level it up, then fortify it with a litre of voddy, which should (If I'm thinking correctly) prevent any residual sugar/sweetness refermenting and then just bung it into glass to bulk age for a good few months - I might even leave it until October/November and give some of it away as crimbo pressies next year!

As I'm doubting whether any further attempt at restarting it will make any difference.

I might make another batch though, but if I do get round to it, I'll make sure I take an OG measurement and use a champagne yeast. That way I should have some sort of bench mark to work from.

As for notes, I'll probably use my blog for that - I've sort of done that with some of my batches already, but not made them that detailed.

Thanks for the pointers - if nothing else it's clarified my thoughts on what I think is best to do with it next.

regards

John the fatbloke

[lockwood1956]

As for notes, I'll probably use my blog for that - I've sort of done that with some of my batches already, but not made them that detailed.

Thanks for the pointers - if nothing else it's clarified my thoughts on what I think is best to do with it next.

regards

John the fatbloke

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately, I must confess though at this point, my note taking has been less than brilliant this year, but what I did do, (thankfully) was post most of my efforts on the forum so was able to come back to the thread and get the info I wanted (yeast types etc) So I've also had a word with myself!

but this got me wondering, I too have noticed that most mead recipes seem to contain a lot of fermentable sugar (honey) I wonder if you were to adjust it down, so that you got a mead of about 10%, would it be drinkable earlier, and light in style. like a wine would?

mead makers tell me that they sometimes have to wait 3 years!! (EEK) for there mead to be good, sometimes longer, is this to do with high alc content?

I feel an experiment coming on

[Aristaeus]

Ole Sticky Wicket...me

Unfortunately the winter mead hasn't restarted. Why, I don't know.

Now since I've been checking it, it seems that at some point I split it into 3 x 1 gallon glass demi-johns but 2 of them seem to have stopped at 1.010 and the third at 1.020

Decide what you are trying to make at the outset, and adjust your must accordingly, 1 gallon apple juice + 1 gallon cranberry + 1 gal water would likely give a start SG of 1.040 add to that 9 lbs honey your start SG was likely 1.140, you were lucky to even get it started....never mind get it to finish

Each wine yeast has a certain alcohol limitation. It doesn't really matter what your SG is now, in my opinion, because you also have alcohol in it.

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately

All good advice...including the spanking...look at your hydrometer...it has the calculation on it for you. Take 1.14 sg and subtract it from the current reading 1.01...erm... .13? Respectable 13%, it will mellow sooner than later, put some English white oak chunks in the dj for 3 months and call it done.

And have Clare send me one of those lucious pie's, to hell with the mead! POST MORE PIE, MORE PIE, PLEASE! A big mug of hot buttered mead and one of Clare's pies...mercy, how LUCKY! Warming mead reduces the alcohol anyway. Lucky are you JtFb! LUCKY! Open a Meadery, serves nothing but John's Mead and Clare's Pie! BEST OF SHOW as my vote.

Bob and others have an alcohol resource post...or two....but I will post a table of sg's with potential alcohol...then take the yeast profiles and you can best "GUESSTIMATE" very close to what is expected from your brix and yeast.


Keith

[lockwood1956]

If it started at 1.140 (guessing) and its now at 1.010 it has dropped 130 SG points which gives alcohol content of 17.6% and I suspect this is why it has stopped

[fatbloke]

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately, I must confess though at this point, my note taking has been less than brilliant this year, but what I did do, (thankfully) was post most of my efforts on the forum so was able to come back to the thread and get the info I wanted (yeast types etc) So I've also had a word with myself!

but this got me wondering, I too have noticed that most mead recipes seem to contain a lot of fermentable sugar (honey) I wonder if you were to adjust it down, so that you got a mead of about 10%, would it be drinkable earlier, and light in style. like a wine would?

mead makers tell me that they sometimes have to wait 3 years!! (EEK) for there mead to be good, sometimes longer, is this to do with high alc content?

I feel an experiment coming on

To be honest, I think that putting it (any notes that is) on my blog is better, because I can swear and curse all I want (though the aforementioned is mainly through frustration). So it upsets no one but me (and I don't care a monkeys about the linquistic laziness of bad language ).

Having thought about what you said re the length of time it can take some meads to become drinkable Bob, the first one I did was the dry mead recipe from CJJ's "First Steps" book, on the suggestion of the bloke at the local HBS I used the youngs "High Alcohol/Dessert Wine" yeast. After the initial ferment and racking, it really did taste as Ken Schramm suggested in his "The Compleat Meadmaker" book i.e. like "Listerine". So there seems to be a lot of truth in it about the high alc' burning away flavour. A year later, when I finally got round to opening a bottle to try, it wasn't bad at all.

All good advice...including the spanking...look at your hydrometer...it has the calculation on it for you. Take 1.14 sg and subtract it from the current reading 1.01...erm... .13? Respectable 13%, it will mellow sooner than later, put some English white oak chunks in the dj for 3 months and call it done.

And have Clare send me one of those lucious pie's, to hell with the mead! POST MORE PIE, MORE PIE, PLEASE! A big mug of hot buttered mead and one of Clare's pies...mercy, how LUCKY! Warming mead reduces the alcohol anyway. Lucky are you JtFb! LUCKY! Open a Meadery, serves nothing but John's Mead and Clare's Pie! BEST OF SHOW as my vote.

Bob and others have an alcohol resource post...or two....but I will post a table of sg's with potential alcohol...then take the yeast profiles and you can best "GUESSTIMATE" very close to what is expected from your brix and yeast.


Keith

<hand wringing in a "Ron Moody"/Faginesque manner>The pie's mine, ALL MINE </hand wringing in a "Ron Moody"/Faginesque manner>

If it started at 1.140 (guessing) and its now at 1.010 it has dropped 130 SG points which gives alcohol content of 17.6% and I suspect this is why it has stopped

You're probably not far wrong Bob. The experiment you mentioned in the first post, well I already did some of those i.e. The same CJJ recipe, same yeast, etc etc, but with 20% more honey than the recipe suggested, gave me some residual sweetness (post ferment/1st racking). I think that I was trying to emulate some of the commercial meads I'd tried previously. I'm still not really sure if I prefer sweet or dry mead. The recipe I did for the tutorial, turned out (again after ferment/1st rack) better with 71B than it did with EC-1118 or K1V, though I suspect once they've mellowed/aged some, I'll be able to make a proper judgement.

This "Winter Mead" recipe that I've been having problems with is just one that I picked up while digging round the web - not really a serious effort to improve my skills, but it's certainly helped a fair slab.

I've still got to try the 2 packs of liquid yeast I got from Brouwland (Wyeast sweet/dry mead yeasts) yet. Though I'll have to try those one at a time (can't make my mind up whether to try 1 or 3 gallon batches). Though I'm certainly going to make the same recipe as the one I posted in the tutorial - but I'll use tesco honey as thats what I've used for a bench mark to test yeasts.

Ah well, the winter mead is now mixed/blended plus it's been "watered down" with voddy so whatever I did to try and mess it up has been negated by the increased alcohol level. It's in 4 DJ's to clear and age. I'll leave it until well toward the end of summer before I do anything about bottling it (other than racking it I suppose).

Thanks for the pointers etc.

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

OK, so a couple of months ago I made a batch of "Winter Mead (Melo/Meth)".

The recipe is basically a mead, but it uses these ingredients

6 to 9 lbs honey - I used 9 lbs of clover
6 whole cloves
6 whole allspice (crushed)
3 2-inch cinnamon sticks
1 gallon apple juice
1 gallon cranberry juice
water to top off
Now since I've been checking it, it seems that at some point I split it into 3 x 1 gallon glass demi-johns but 2 of them seem to have stopped at 1.010 and the third at 1.020

I can't recall what yeast I used, whether it was lalvin 71B or something else - if it was the 71B there should be some residual sweetness.

Anyway, I though it best to try to restart fermentation - using the jar that was sitting at 1.020 - I had to use Redstart Champagne yeast as I'd used my last packet of EC1118 when restarting my "Tinned Strawberry" (which seems to have restarted fine - using the "Stuck Ferment" thread instructions).

Unfortunately the winter mead hasn't restarted. Why, I don't know.

I've got plenty of Lalvin K1V - and as far as I can tell (thanks to Keiths list of yeast profiles), I could just as easily (in theory) re-restart it with that.

Would that be ok to do that i.e. to restart it a second time ? Or should I just "bite the bullet" and finish racking it ready for bulk ageing (not that it'd need that long as it's not bad tasteing now)?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

regards

JtFB

JTFB - Cheers - I think that we all enjoy a little residual sugar in our mead. I would leave it as is and not try to restart. My suggestion would be to test the pH and acid levels. The TA for that residual SG reading should be something like .6 % and the pH 3.00. If you find that your pH and TA are no where near these suggestions you can adjust with tataric or citric or potasium carbonate -ie: lower pH and higher TA use acid addition to adjust for higher pH and lower acid use potassium carbonate to adjust. Cheers my way of getting the flavor to a balanced area. DAW

[fatbloke]

JTFB - Cheers - I think that we all enjoy a little residual sugar in our mead. I would leave it as is and not try to restart. My suggestion would be to test the pH and acid levels. The TA for that residual SG reading should be something like .6 % and the pH 3.00. If you find that your pH and TA are no where near these suggestions you can adjust with tataric or citric or potasium carbonate -ie: lower pH and higher TA use acid addition to adjust for higher pH and lower acid use potassium carbonate to adjust. Cheers my way of getting the flavor to a balanced area. DAW

I haven't got anything to test pH (my fish kits don't go down that far).

Read about the TA "thing" but I'll have to go and find out what that is (tartaric acid or something else ?).

Not sure whether it's too late to balance it now anyway, but it might be worth a try even though it's been cut with vodka to up the dryness and hopefully prevent any future fermentation (don't like to sorbate unless really necessary). It's all jarred up to age/clear now but if I can balance it, that might help it along some.

Ta for the suggestion. I'm gonna look into that.

regards

JfTB

[StockeyDAW]

I haven't got anything to test pH (my fish kits don't go down that far).

Read about the TA "thing" but I'll have to go and find out what that is (tartaric acid or something else ?).

Not sure whether it's too late to balance it now anyway, but it might be worth a try even though it's been cut with vodka to up the dryness and hopefully prevent any future fermentation (don't like to sorbate unless really necessary). It's all jarred up to age/clear now but if I can balance it, that might help it along some.

Ta for the suggestion. I'm gonna look into that.

regards

JfTB

You can do the adjustments just prior to botteling. That is one advantage of a pH pen meter it does both the pH and TA for us and it sure works a lot better for TA as you do not have to squint to identify a color change. You can purchase a cheap acid testing kit around 20$ here but it is terrible with any red wines or meads -- It works OK for light colored wines and meads. Cheers DAW

[fatbloke]

You can do the adjustments just prior to botteling. That is one advantage of a pH pen meter it does both the pH and TA for us and it sure works a lot better for TA as you do not have to squint to identify a color change. You can purchase a cheap acid testing kit around 20$ here but it is terrible with any red wines or meads -- It works OK for light colored wines and meads. Cheers DAW

Bugger! Guess what colour this batch is ??? baring in mind that the largest of the liquid ingredients are Apple and cranberry juices !

Ah well, looks like it's back to digging round to see what I can find test (and price) wise!

regards

JtFB

[fatbloke]

Just for info what is meant by TA ?

Because I've found a pen meter that will cost me about £17 + the shipping so it would be excellent to understand what's actually meant by "TA"

TVM

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Just for info what is meant by TA ?

Because I've found a pen meter that will cost me about £17 + the shipping so it would be excellent to understand what's actually meant by "TA"

TVM

JtFB

TA is titrateable acid, the amount of acid available to you as the winemaker. Adjusting the acid is important in production of quality wines, and will have a remarkable effect on the finished wine

I've not seen a pen meter for TA (doesnt mean they aren't available, but I'm as sure as I can be that they aren't) It's likely a PH meter you have seen, PH and TA are closely linked but they are a different thing.

An Acid (TA) test kit can be had from your local home brew store (you will likely have to order it) for between £5 and £6 and you can use the PH meter to detect the titration point (where the colour of the test sample changes) using a PH meter, it takes a little practise to get it right, but it can be done. Jut be careful getting into PH...it will likely mess with your mind for a while. The test kits available in the UK are pretty good for seeing the colour change, the US and Canadians ones (titrets) are not so good, so those boys use their PH meters to detect the titration point (when PH reaches 8.2 the titration is complete)

i would invest in the (Ritchie's) acid test kit, and play with that first.

to add to the confusion, US and Canadian (and UK Professional test kits) measure the acid expressed as Tartaric. French and hobby UK test kits express acid as sulphuric, so you need to know which scale is being used, but conversion chart here, which will also give you the acidity levels reqd for wines
see page 2

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/TAtestsheet.pdf

Info on using PH meter to determine titration point here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/PHmetertotestTA.pdf

see here on tutorial on how to use acid test kit

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=886

[lockwood1956]

Also...

see here for definitions for competition wines (including mead) with ideal alcohol and acidity definitions

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

might help to look at it before setting out to make a wine, determine what sort of wine you are trying to make, and then adjusting everything accordingly. Gives you total control over the process, and is the only way to consistently produce good (or even great) wines.