Problem or not ? What's next (winter mead)?

[fatbloke]

Ha ha! Those were the two I was looking at. How bizarre.

Yes, I can see why the dearer meter would be better/more accurate, but (using the fish example) I only test the water to the nearest tenth i.e. one decimal point. Mainly because they're fresh water tropical (with a natural tolerance).

Of course, if I was keeping marine tropical fish, then maybe I'd be more picky about it.

Hence I was wondering what the necessity of measuring to 2 decimal points might be ?

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

For example this one is £17.63

http://www.digital-meters.com/Pen_Type_pH_Meter_PH03I-p-16444.html

resolution to 0.01 accuracy to 0.2


this one however is £34.99

http://www.digital-meters.com/Tropical_and_Marine_Aquarium_pH_Meter__Tecpel_PH703-p-16163.html

resolution still at 0.01, but accuracy to 0.02

so although its twice the price, its ten times the meter


Don't forget calibration solutions too, you will need PH 7 and PH 4 calibrating solutions, don't bother with PH 10, and if you only calibrate with one solution, get PH 4, as its closer to the range we will be using. It needs to be calibrated before you use it (every time)

[lockwood1956]

Accuracy is the big thing, you can buy cheaper end PH meters but you really need accuracy to 0.1 as a minimum..0.01 is better but then you are paying bigger money.

Oh and don't confuse resolution with accuracy, they will likely all have resolution to 0.01 but its the accuracy figure you are looking for.

But buying from aquatic suppliers will give you better value, just remember you need accuracy!

regards
Bob

[fatbloke]

TA is titrateable acid, the amount of acid available to you as the winemaker. Adjusting the acid is important in production of quality wines, and will have a remarkable effect on the finished wine

I've not seen a pen meter for TA (doesnt mean they aren't available, but I'm as sure as I can be that they aren't) It's likely a PH meter you have seen, PH and TA are closely linked but they are a different thing.

An Acid (TA) test kit can be had from your local home brew store (you will likely have to order it) for between £5 and £6 and you can use the PH meter to detect the titration point (where the colour of the test sample changes) using a PH meter, it takes a little practise to get it right, but it can be done. Jut be careful getting into PH...it will likely mess with your mind for a while. The test kits available in the UK are pretty good for seeing the colour change, the US and Canadians ones (titrets) are not so good, so those boys use their PH meters to detect the titration point (when PH reaches 8.2 the titration is complete)

i would invest in the (Ritchie's) acid test kit, and play with that first.

to add to the confusion, US and Canadian (and UK Professional test kits) measure the acid expressed as Tartaric. French and hobby UK test kits express acid as sulphuric, so you need to know which scale is being used, but conversion chart here, which will also give you the acidity levels reqd for wines
see page 2

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/TAtestsheet.pdf

Info on using PH meter to determine titration point here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/PHmetertotestTA.pdf

see here on tutorial on how to use acid test kit
http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=886

Also...

see here for definitions for competition wines (including mead) with ideal alcohol and acidity definitions

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

might help to look at it before setting out to make a wine, determine what sort of wine you are trying to make, and then adjusting everything accordingly. Gives you total control over the process, and is the only way to consistently produce good (or even great) wines.

cheers for that Bob, using test kits is straight forward - it's just the ones I use for my fish tank sometimes, are very narrow in spectrum - cos of the hard water round here I use the one that's for higher pH reading - it doesn't offer levels down low enough for measuring wine (ha! good thing as I prefer pickled herring and mackerel - rather than gold and angel fish ).

The pH meter I've seen is about £18 so won't exactly break the bank - plus it works from 0 to 14 and has temperature adjustment. It'll probably suit me fine (in theory).

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Also...

see here for definitions for competition wines (including mead) with ideal alcohol and acidity definitions

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

might help to look at it before setting out to make a wine, determine what sort of wine you are trying to make, and then adjusting everything accordingly. Gives you total control over the process, and is the only way to consistently produce good (or even great) wines.

[lockwood1956]

Just for info what is meant by TA ?

Because I've found a pen meter that will cost me about £17 + the shipping so it would be excellent to understand what's actually meant by "TA"

TVM

JtFB

TA is titrateable acid, the amount of acid available to you as the winemaker. Adjusting the acid is important in production of quality wines, and will have a remarkable effect on the finished wine

I've not seen a pen meter for TA (doesnt mean they aren't available, but I'm as sure as I can be that they aren't) It's likely a PH meter you have seen, PH and TA are closely linked but they are a different thing.

An Acid (TA) test kit can be had from your local home brew store (you will likely have to order it) for between £5 and £6 and you can use the PH meter to detect the titration point (where the colour of the test sample changes) using a PH meter, it takes a little practise to get it right, but it can be done. Jut be careful getting into PH...it will likely mess with your mind for a while. The test kits available in the UK are pretty good for seeing the colour change, the US and Canadians ones (titrets) are not so good, so those boys use their PH meters to detect the titration point (when PH reaches 8.2 the titration is complete)

i would invest in the (Ritchie's) acid test kit, and play with that first.

to add to the confusion, US and Canadian (and UK Professional test kits) measure the acid expressed as Tartaric. French and hobby UK test kits express acid as sulphuric, so you need to know which scale is being used, but conversion chart here, which will also give you the acidity levels reqd for wines
see page 2

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/TAtestsheet.pdf

Info on using PH meter to determine titration point here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/PHmetertotestTA.pdf

see here on tutorial on how to use acid test kit

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=886

[fatbloke]

Just for info what is meant by TA ?

Because I've found a pen meter that will cost me about £17 + the shipping so it would be excellent to understand what's actually meant by "TA"

TVM

JtFB

[fatbloke]

You can do the adjustments just prior to botteling. That is one advantage of a pH pen meter it does both the pH and TA for us and it sure works a lot better for TA as you do not have to squint to identify a color change. You can purchase a cheap acid testing kit around 20$ here but it is terrible with any red wines or meads -- It works OK for light colored wines and meads. Cheers DAW

Bugger! Guess what colour this batch is ??? baring in mind that the largest of the liquid ingredients are Apple and cranberry juices !

Ah well, looks like it's back to digging round to see what I can find test (and price) wise!

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

I haven't got anything to test pH (my fish kits don't go down that far).

Read about the TA "thing" but I'll have to go and find out what that is (tartaric acid or something else ?).

Not sure whether it's too late to balance it now anyway, but it might be worth a try even though it's been cut with vodka to up the dryness and hopefully prevent any future fermentation (don't like to sorbate unless really necessary). It's all jarred up to age/clear now but if I can balance it, that might help it along some.

Ta for the suggestion. I'm gonna look into that.

regards

JfTB

You can do the adjustments just prior to botteling. That is one advantage of a pH pen meter it does both the pH and TA for us and it sure works a lot better for TA as you do not have to squint to identify a color change. You can purchase a cheap acid testing kit around 20$ here but it is terrible with any red wines or meads -- It works OK for light colored wines and meads. Cheers DAW

[fatbloke]

JTFB - Cheers - I think that we all enjoy a little residual sugar in our mead. I would leave it as is and not try to restart. My suggestion would be to test the pH and acid levels. The TA for that residual SG reading should be something like .6 % and the pH 3.00. If you find that your pH and TA are no where near these suggestions you can adjust with tataric or citric or potasium carbonate -ie: lower pH and higher TA use acid addition to adjust for higher pH and lower acid use potassium carbonate to adjust. Cheers my way of getting the flavor to a balanced area. DAW

I haven't got anything to test pH (my fish kits don't go down that far).

Read about the TA "thing" but I'll have to go and find out what that is (tartaric acid or something else ?).

Not sure whether it's too late to balance it now anyway, but it might be worth a try even though it's been cut with vodka to up the dryness and hopefully prevent any future fermentation (don't like to sorbate unless really necessary). It's all jarred up to age/clear now but if I can balance it, that might help it along some.

Ta for the suggestion. I'm gonna look into that.

regards

JfTB

[StockeyDAW]

OK, so a couple of months ago I made a batch of "Winter Mead (Melo/Meth)".

The recipe is basically a mead, but it uses these ingredients

6 to 9 lbs honey - I used 9 lbs of clover
6 whole cloves
6 whole allspice (crushed)
3 2-inch cinnamon sticks
1 gallon apple juice
1 gallon cranberry juice
water to top off
Now since I've been checking it, it seems that at some point I split it into 3 x 1 gallon glass demi-johns but 2 of them seem to have stopped at 1.010 and the third at 1.020

I can't recall what yeast I used, whether it was lalvin 71B or something else - if it was the 71B there should be some residual sweetness.

Anyway, I though it best to try to restart fermentation - using the jar that was sitting at 1.020 - I had to use Redstart Champagne yeast as I'd used my last packet of EC1118 when restarting my "Tinned Strawberry" (which seems to have restarted fine - using the "Stuck Ferment" thread instructions).

Unfortunately the winter mead hasn't restarted. Why, I don't know.

I've got plenty of Lalvin K1V - and as far as I can tell (thanks to Keiths list of yeast profiles), I could just as easily (in theory) re-restart it with that.

Would that be ok to do that i.e. to restart it a second time ? Or should I just "bite the bullet" and finish racking it ready for bulk ageing (not that it'd need that long as it's not bad tasteing now)?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

regards

JtFB

JTFB - Cheers - I think that we all enjoy a little residual sugar in our mead. I would leave it as is and not try to restart. My suggestion would be to test the pH and acid levels. The TA for that residual SG reading should be something like .6 % and the pH 3.00. If you find that your pH and TA are no where near these suggestions you can adjust with tataric or citric or potasium carbonate -ie: lower pH and higher TA use acid addition to adjust for higher pH and lower acid use potassium carbonate to adjust. Cheers my way of getting the flavor to a balanced area. DAW

[fatbloke]

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately, I must confess though at this point, my note taking has been less than brilliant this year, but what I did do, (thankfully) was post most of my efforts on the forum so was able to come back to the thread and get the info I wanted (yeast types etc) So I've also had a word with myself!

but this got me wondering, I too have noticed that most mead recipes seem to contain a lot of fermentable sugar (honey) I wonder if you were to adjust it down, so that you got a mead of about 10%, would it be drinkable earlier, and light in style. like a wine would?

mead makers tell me that they sometimes have to wait 3 years!! (EEK) for there mead to be good, sometimes longer, is this to do with high alc content?

I feel an experiment coming on

To be honest, I think that putting it (any notes that is) on my blog is better, because I can swear and curse all I want (though the aforementioned is mainly through frustration). So it upsets no one but me (and I don't care a monkeys about the linquistic laziness of bad language ).

Having thought about what you said re the length of time it can take some meads to become drinkable Bob, the first one I did was the dry mead recipe from CJJ's "First Steps" book, on the suggestion of the bloke at the local HBS I used the youngs "High Alcohol/Dessert Wine" yeast. After the initial ferment and racking, it really did taste as Ken Schramm suggested in his "The Compleat Meadmaker" book i.e. like "Listerine". So there seems to be a lot of truth in it about the high alc' burning away flavour. A year later, when I finally got round to opening a bottle to try, it wasn't bad at all.

All good advice...including the spanking...look at your hydrometer...it has the calculation on it for you. Take 1.14 sg and subtract it from the current reading 1.01...erm... .13? Respectable 13%, it will mellow sooner than later, put some English white oak chunks in the dj for 3 months and call it done.

And have Clare send me one of those lucious pie's, to hell with the mead! POST MORE PIE, MORE PIE, PLEASE! A big mug of hot buttered mead and one of Clare's pies...mercy, how LUCKY! Warming mead reduces the alcohol anyway. Lucky are you JtFb! LUCKY! Open a Meadery, serves nothing but John's Mead and Clare's Pie! BEST OF SHOW as my vote.

Bob and others have an alcohol resource post...or two....but I will post a table of sg's with potential alcohol...then take the yeast profiles and you can best "GUESSTIMATE" very close to what is expected from your brix and yeast.


Keith

<hand wringing in a "Ron Moody"/Faginesque manner>The pie's mine, ALL MINE </hand wringing in a "Ron Moody"/Faginesque manner>

If it started at 1.140 (guessing) and its now at 1.010 it has dropped 130 SG points which gives alcohol content of 17.6% and I suspect this is why it has stopped

You're probably not far wrong Bob. The experiment you mentioned in the first post, well I already did some of those i.e. The same CJJ recipe, same yeast, etc etc, but with 20% more honey than the recipe suggested, gave me some residual sweetness (post ferment/1st racking). I think that I was trying to emulate some of the commercial meads I'd tried previously. I'm still not really sure if I prefer sweet or dry mead. The recipe I did for the tutorial, turned out (again after ferment/1st rack) better with 71B than it did with EC-1118 or K1V, though I suspect once they've mellowed/aged some, I'll be able to make a proper judgement.

This "Winter Mead" recipe that I've been having problems with is just one that I picked up while digging round the web - not really a serious effort to improve my skills, but it's certainly helped a fair slab.

I've still got to try the 2 packs of liquid yeast I got from Brouwland (Wyeast sweet/dry mead yeasts) yet. Though I'll have to try those one at a time (can't make my mind up whether to try 1 or 3 gallon batches). Though I'm certainly going to make the same recipe as the one I posted in the tutorial - but I'll use tesco honey as thats what I've used for a bench mark to test yeasts.

Ah well, the winter mead is now mixed/blended plus it's been "watered down" with voddy so whatever I did to try and mess it up has been negated by the increased alcohol level. It's in 4 DJ's to clear and age. I'll leave it until well toward the end of summer before I do anything about bottling it (other than racking it I suppose).

Thanks for the pointers etc.

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

If it started at 1.140 (guessing) and its now at 1.010 it has dropped 130 SG points which gives alcohol content of 17.6% and I suspect this is why it has stopped

Ole Sticky Wicket...me

Unfortunately the winter mead hasn't restarted. Why, I don't know.

Now since I've been checking it, it seems that at some point I split it into 3 x 1 gallon glass demi-johns but 2 of them seem to have stopped at 1.010 and the third at 1.020

Decide what you are trying to make at the outset, and adjust your must accordingly, 1 gallon apple juice + 1 gallon cranberry + 1 gal water would likely give a start SG of 1.040 add to that 9 lbs honey your start SG was likely 1.140, you were lucky to even get it started....never mind get it to finish

Each wine yeast has a certain alcohol limitation. It doesn't really matter what your SG is now, in my opinion, because you also have alcohol in it.

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately

All good advice...including the spanking...look at your hydrometer...it has the calculation on it for you. Take 1.14 sg and subtract it from the current reading 1.01...erm... .13? Respectable 13%, it will mellow sooner than later, put some English white oak chunks in the dj for 3 months and call it done.

And have Clare send me one of those lucious pie's, to hell with the mead! POST MORE PIE, MORE PIE, PLEASE! A big mug of hot buttered mead and one of Clare's pies...mercy, how LUCKY! Warming mead reduces the alcohol anyway. Lucky are you JtFb! LUCKY! Open a Meadery, serves nothing but John's Mead and Clare's Pie! BEST OF SHOW as my vote.

Bob and others have an alcohol resource post...or two....but I will post a table of sg's with potential alcohol...then take the yeast profiles and you can best "GUESSTIMATE" very close to what is expected from your brix and yeast.


Keith

[lockwood1956]

As for notes, I'll probably use my blog for that - I've sort of done that with some of my batches already, but not made them that detailed.

Thanks for the pointers - if nothing else it's clarified my thoughts on what I think is best to do with it next.

regards

John the fatbloke

you are a naughty boy John

have yourself spanked immediately, I must confess though at this point, my note taking has been less than brilliant this year, but what I did do, (thankfully) was post most of my efforts on the forum so was able to come back to the thread and get the info I wanted (yeast types etc) So I've also had a word with myself!

but this got me wondering, I too have noticed that most mead recipes seem to contain a lot of fermentable sugar (honey) I wonder if you were to adjust it down, so that you got a mead of about 10%, would it be drinkable earlier, and light in style. like a wine would?

mead makers tell me that they sometimes have to wait 3 years!! (EEK) for there mead to be good, sometimes longer, is this to do with high alc content?

I feel an experiment coming on