Q's before my next experiment!

[fatbloke]

So, it's back to yeast experiments.

I've got (as mentioned in other threads) a packet of Wyeast Sweet mead yeast and one of Wyeast Dry mead yeast.

I'm intending to use the recipe that I posted in the tutorial - and apart from the yeast, the only difference from my previous experiments with yeasts, is that I've got the Greek Honey from Lidl's instead of the cheaper tesco's stuff (yes I know that there will be flavour differences due to the change in honey).

So the only real question is about pH levels.

As I work through the recipe, should I still be heading towards the 3.0 to 3.5 pH ?

Plus, at what point should I be checking this ?

When I have all the ingredients in the mix i.e. the honey, water, tea, nutrient, etc except the yeast or should it be measured before the nutrient ? but with the other ingredients etc.

Only I'm a little unsure exactly which of the ingredients are likely to affect the pH (obviously things like lemon or citric or other acids will, but tea ? or nutrient etc ??

regards

JtFB

[medpretzel]

I'm not really a mead-maker, but I'll try to answer a couple of questions to give you a guide. I'm sure DAW and others could help you a bit more.

So the only real question is about pH levels.

As I work through the recipe, should I still be heading towards the 3.0 to 3.5 pH ?

Seems like a good target for a mead.

Plus, at what point should I be checking this ?

Beginning and end optimally. There are guides to tell you what your starting pH should be, and what your ending pH should be.

When I have all the ingredients in the mix i.e. the honey, water, tea, nutrient, etc except the yeast or should it be measured before the nutrient ? but with the other ingredients etc.

Everything except the yeast, for everything will be in your mead at the end too.

Only I'm a little unsure exactly which of the ingredients are likely to affect the pH (obviously things like lemon or citric or other acids will, but tea ? or nutrient etc ??

regards

JtFB

It'll be fine. I don't think anything else would affect the pH so much, but it's the sum of the parts (I'd like to believe, at least) that could make a slight difference. I don't know how true this statement really is, but that's how my logic works.

Good luck, I love your experiments!

Dani

[fatbloke]

-----%<-----

Good luck, I love your experiments!

Dani

Cheers for the reply Dani, I'm thinking of mixing the batch(es) this afternoon, getting the yeast out of the fridge, but letting the brews cool and the yeast warm, then pitch tomorrow evening when it should all be at room temp!

As for my experiments, well, experiments that have thus far left me with about 15 gallons of meads/wines of dubious quality/flavour etc, that I haven't got a clue as to whether they'll ever get consumed!

I've been thinking of going through them and tasting, so that anything that doesn't meet the mystical criteria that I don't understand myself, will end up going through my "water purifyer". Then being dumped into 1 gall DJ's with oak chips, wax sealed and left in my shed.

worst case scenario will be that it ends up as paint thinners

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and that "mystical criteria" I mention, well I'm guessing it's about making mead and trying to come, even slightly, to the taste of the commercial ones I've tried. As yet, I haven't even come close, so I'll have to go to the local farm shop and get a couple of commercial ones to see if I am getting anywhere!

[lockwood1956]

If you intend to use acid additions to adjust the PH then use tartaric acid, as you can then reduce the acid content afterwards via cold stabilisation.

The Australians use that technique for their red wines, they adjust the PH down to increase fruitiness (Taste an Ozzie Shiraz, it works!) they then adjust the acid downwards again at the end.

I tried it in 06 and messed up big time, however I was able to adjust the wine back in line, but I fear that my meddling produced a decent wine from Grapes that were capable of producing exceptional wine

make any acid adjustments carefully, and be sure to be sober, check and recheck your acid additions, and (unlike I did) maybe post your numbers on here and get a 2nd opinion

regards and good luck
Bob

[lockwood1956]

make any acid adjustments carefully, and be sure to be sober, check and recheck your acid additions,

What I mean is......It is very very easy to get the decimal point one place out

[medpretzel]

p.s. Oh and that "mystical criteria" I mention, well I'm guessing it's about making mead and trying to come, even slightly, to the taste of the commercial ones I've tried. As yet, I haven't even come close, so I'll have to go to the local farm shop and get a couple of commercial ones to see if I am getting anywhere!

Get a commercial mead and test the ending ph of the one you like. In that way, you'd know what you should be shooting for at the beginning.

Bob helped me with my recent pH issues, so he's a great reference point.

Dani

[lockwood1956]

Bob helped me with my recent pH issues, so he's a great reference point.

Oh no!



the pressure!



keep at it John, your enthusiasm is an example to us all

[fatbloke]

If you intend to use acid additions to adjust the PH then use tartaric acid, as you can then reduce the acid content afterwards via cold stabilisation.

The Australians use that technique for their red wines, they adjust the PH down to increase fruitiness (Taste an Ozzie Shiraz, it works!) they then adjust the acid downwards again at the end.

I tried it in 06 and messed up big time, however I was able to adjust the wine back in line, but I fear that my meddling produced a decent wine from Grapes that were capable of producing exceptional wine

make any acid adjustments carefully, and be sure to be sober, check and recheck your acid additions, and (unlike I did) maybe post your numbers on here and get a 2nd opinion

regards and good luck
Bob

Right, so what you're alluding to, is to, if anything, make it a little more acid ??

As for "Cold Stabilisation", I've heard it mentioned/read something, but don't really know what that is (google is my friend ).

Is there some sort of table that tells me that "X" amount of acid will increase the acidity/lower the pH to "Y" (presuming the same concentration of all the available acids/blends)?

Get a commercial mead and test the ending ph of the one you like. In that way, you'd know what you should be shooting for at the beginning.

Bob helped me with my recent pH issues, so he's a great reference point.

Dani

Now that's a damn good idea. I hadn't thought of measuring a commercial one and using it as a guide. How stupid of me not to have thought of it!

Oh no!
the pressure!

keep at it John, your enthusiasm is an example to us all

Hum? enthusiastic, maybe?

Successful? Not really. Having spent the best part of 2 years making mead that might be passable/drinkable, but not IMO good.

The acronym of K.I.S.S. keeps coming to mind - and some of the reading I locate "around the bazaars", makes things hard work.

For instance, historically, mead making can't have been that difficult, given it's success until the factoryisation of beers etc.

I don't mind so much that it can take a while to actually make, or just modifying a recipe to take account of modern ingredients, but I don't understand why I've yet to make something that I'd consider "nice" - like the memories I have of the commercial meads I've tasted before (though not since I've been trying to make my own).

Dani's suggestion is an absolute master stroke. It looks like I'll have to get over to Middle Farm next weekend, unless I have to deliver anything there before then. So I think I might delay making the next batch until then, and actually formulate a plan as to how I'm actually going to follow the recipe in practice!

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and do you think I should actually distil some water so that there's no chance of that influencing the end product ?

[medpretzel]

Quick reply:
Not sure about the acid question...

Cold stabilisation... Tutorials on just about everything! This one is great, by the way. hehe

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1595

Enthusiasm leads to success... Without it, you can't have the other. Keep that in mind.

Right, so what you're alluding to, is to, if anything, make it a little more acid ??

As for "Cold Stabilisation", I've heard it mentioned/read something, but don't really know what that is (google is my friend ).

Is there some sort of table that tells me that "X" amount of acid will increase the acidity/lower the pH to "Y" (presuming the same concentration of all the available acids/blends)?

Now that's a damn good idea. I hadn't thought of measuring a commercial one and using it as a guide. How stupid of me not to have thought of it!
Hum? enthusiastic, maybe?

Successful? Not really. Having spent the best part of 2 years making mead that might be passable/drinkable, but not IMO good.

The acronym of K.I.S.S. keeps coming to mind - and some of the reading I locate "around the bazaars", makes things hard work.

For instance, historically, mead making can't have been that difficult, given it's success until the factoryisation of beers etc.

I don't mind so much that it can take a while to actually make, or just modifying a recipe to take account of modern ingredients, but I don't understand why I've yet to make something that I'd consider "nice" - like the memories I have of the commercial meads I've tasted before (though not since I've been trying to make my own).

Dani's suggestion is an absolute master stroke. It looks like I'll have to get over to Middle Farm next weekend, unless I have to deliver anything there before then. So I think I might delay making the next batch until then, and actually formulate a plan as to how I'm actually going to follow the recipe in practice!

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and do you think I should actually distil some water so that there's no chance of that influencing the end product ?

[StockeyDAW]

FB,Dani and Bob -- here is my suggestions from my experience and the successes and not so good that I have had:

Yes for pH 3.0-3.5; around the 3.25-3.30 is right in the ideal location but make sure it is not above 3.5 or below 3.0.

Check this along with the Starting Gravity (SG) just before pitching the yeast. After all your additives are in the must - fruit- energiser and initial acid addition.

When you measure the pH it will tell you if you require any additions before you start the fermentation. You will generally (nearly all the time) find that it will be necessary to add more tartaric acid to bring the pH down to the 3.0-3.5 range.

My suggestion is also a boost of nutrient and energizer at half the initial levels added to give the mead must a boost - honey is very deficient in nutrients and nitrogen and requires this extra food to ensure a clean non stuck fermentation through to the end. When you add this boost you will note the slight foaming action - the yeast coming alive again.

I am not familiar with Greek honey (citrus - orange blossom?). Honey varies in initial the pH levels that is a result of the nectar and where the bees have been feeding. Some honey can be as high as 6.0 pH and some as low as 3.5 pH. pH relates to the power of the acids in the mead must and is not directly related to the titratable acid (TA) in the must. Because of the sweetness in the honey it masks the TA levels and therefore this can not be measured accurately until after the fermentation has completed (this is different that when making a wine).

What effect the pH - yes the addition of different fruits, berries and grapes. The one that you use to determine the pH is in range is tartaric acid. Addition of tartaric acid will lower the pH and increase the TA; the addition of potassium carbonate will raise the pH and lower the TA. Check the pH,TA and Specific Gravity just before bottling and make adjustment then.

Cheers all hopes this helps. Daw

[fatbloke]

Quick reply:
Not sure about the acid question...

Cold stabilisation... Tutorials on just about everything! This one is great, by the way. hehe

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1595

Enthusiasm leads to success... Without it, you can't have the other. Keep that in mind.

As you say Dani, excellent. A very good tutorial. Though I'd have to wait for weather - as it doesn't get that cold here, that often. Certainly not in a predictable way. I'm wondering about whether I'd experience the crystal formation in mead ???

FB,Dani and Bob -- here is my suggestions from my experience and the successes and not so good that I have had:

Yes for pH 3.0-3.5; around the 3.25-3.30 is right in the ideal location but make sure it is not above 3.5 or below 3.0.

Check this along with the Starting Gravity (SG) just before pitching the yeast. After all your additives are in the must - fruit- energiser and initial acid addition.

When you measure the pH it will tell you if you require any additions before you start the fermentation. You will generally (nearly all the time) find that it will be necessary to add more tartaric acid to bring the pH down to the 3.0-3.5 range.

My suggestion is also a boost of nutrient and energizer at half the initial levels added to give the mead must a boost - honey is very deficient in nutrients and nitrogen and requires this extra food to ensure a clean non stuck fermentation through to the end. When you add this boost you will note the slight foaming action - the yeast coming alive again.

I am not familiar with Greek honey (citrus - orange blossom?). Honey varies in initial the pH levels that is a result of the nectar and where the bees have been feeding. Some honey can be as high as 6.0 pH and some as low as 3.5 pH. pH relates to the power of the acids in the mead must and is not directly related to the titratable acid (TA) in the must. Because of the sweetness in the honey it masks the TA levels and therefore this can not be measured accurately until after the fermentation has completed (this is different that when making a wine).

What effect the pH - yes the addition of different fruits, berries and grapes. The one that you use to determine the pH is in range is tartaric acid. Addition of tartaric acid will lower the pH and increase the TA; the addition of potassium carbonate will raise the pH and lower the TA. Check the pH,TA and Specific Gravity just before bottling and make adjustment then.

Cheers all hopes this helps. Daw

Cheers for that DAW, I'll probably print it off to follow with the recipe - otherwise I'll manage to forget something. Plus it gives me a few other things to check before I actually start making the must - even though I don't boil/heat, just enough to make the honey run out the jars easily.

The Greek honey doesn't give any clues as to where/what the main production ingredient might be - so I'm presuming that it's just blended stuff. Blended in Greece, rather than the usual "product of more than one EU country".

It also has a fuller flavour from the usual cheap stuff I get from the supermarket - which is one of the reasons I thought I'd use it for this experiment. Either way, it should give me some idea of what to expect when using different/better honeys.

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

FB - this is like you are trying to chop of the hand that is trying to help you ?

I'll probably print it off to follow with the recipe - otherwise I'll manage to forget something. Plus it gives me a few other things to check before I actually start making the must

The making of Mead - Wine especially the process is up to you. You have been provided with some informative tools - it is up to you to put them into a process that works for you. There is a lot of art in this home mead wine making and following ideas does not generally end in success. You have to put your ideas and art into it. One suggestion is to prepare a Mead or Wine log for everything that you make, record everything that you do. There are many ways to make a mead and you will not find agreement on methods - each have their own way of doing things. Mine is not a bible it is an accumulation of ideas that have worked for me but it is not a guarantee that it will work for you. Find a process that works for you and extend a helpful, thankful hand to people that try to help you or that you are trying to advise on making mead. Good luck with your batch. Cheers Daw

[medpretzel]

It also has a fuller flavour from the usual cheap stuff I get from the supermarket - which is one of the reasons I thought I'd use it for this experiment. Either way, it should give me some idea of what to expect when using different/better honeys.

It's not just the ingredients that make a good wine/mead. It's also technique. As DAW explains, following a recipe is just as important as using high quality ingredients. The one doesn't cancel out another.

I've made a blueberry wine that is just awful. The blueberries were of highest quality, but my winemaking skills weren't. After 3 years in the bottle, the stuff still tastes like rocket fuel.

So, DAW is right. Take good notes. I wouldn't know today what I did with my blueberry wine if I hadn't written it down. And then, if I wanted to try another, I might make the same mistake. Too sad, for spending so much money on something that takes at least a year to become drinkable.

[StockeyDAW]

It's not just the ingredients that make a good wine/mead. It's also technique. As DAW explains, following a recipe is just as important as using high quality ingredients. The one doesn't cancel out another.

I've made a blueberry wine that is just awful. The blueberries were of highest quality, but my wine making skills weren't. After 3 years in the bottle, the stuff still tastes like rocket fuel.

So, DAW is right. Take good notes. I wouldn't know today what I did with my blueberry wine if I hadn't written it down. And then, if I wanted to try another, I might make the same mistake. Too sad, for spending so much money on something that takes at least a year to become drinkable.

I agree Dani -- FB - one example is the Greek Honey that you have purchased - sounds better than what you previously purchased buttttt -- would you purchase a fertilizer for your garden or lawn without knowing the levels of nitrogen, phosphorus or potassium? Honey is like that when making mead - if you have all the information on where the bees were feeding (what flowers) you can then use that information to prepare an overall better mead.
Experimentation is for the microbiologists and food scientists; our job is to use and develop the information that the experts provide for our benefit. Mead making has a long way to go to catch up to the research that has gone into making wine. This work is presently being undertaken. Because of this we are likely to have much better mead making criteria in the very near future.
Cheers Daw

[john]

wouldn't you get a quicker ferment with a ph closer to 5? My understanding is that a ph needs to be between 3.7 to 5.5 for a fast strong fermentation. (with mead)