Pear wine yeast problem

[valleydaz]

Hello all,

I'm making a pear wine now, as follows is how i,ve done it so far;

15-10-07 (day 1)
I cored and topped/tailed 15kg of Pears, then grated then into primary fermenting bucket
minced up white Raisins with a little water in blender then added to primary
added 15ml Sulphate powder blend with 3 tsp Ascorbic acid to help against oxidation
added 125ml Grape concentrate
added 2 tsp Rohament-p to break up fruit
added 1 tsp Tannine
added 5 tsp yeast nutrient (15g)
added 5 tsp Citroen acid (15g)
added 4 tsp Tartaric acid (12g)
added 2 tsp Malic acid (6g)
added Pectic Enzyme II four hours later
Stirring regularly
16-10-07 (day 2)
made up yeast starter, left for 6 hours
measured s.g. 1.030
added 3 ½ kg sugar to make s.g. 1.080
added yeast starter
17-10-07 (day 3)
nothing happening

a little bit more info for sherlock;

- the champagne yeast i bought, when i got home with it i noticed that the lid of the pot was loose, i've stored it since then in the fridge (5 days)

- the starter i made wasn't really doing much

I'm thinking of adding b1 vit tablets to the must to try to get it going, is that a good idea?

Any other ideas you might have to help me would be much appreciated

[Duffbeer]

What is the brewing temp ? your method and recipe sound ok to me, there is the possibility that the yeast has become useless due to being exposed to the atmosphere for a long period (has happened to me), If the temp is between 18 and 22c then I would suggest leaving 24 hrs more in case the the yeast is just slow to start, in the meantime buy some fresh yeast and kick off another yeast starter ready to pitch if ferment doesn't start.

[lockwood1956]

I'm thinking of adding b1 vit tablets to the must to try to get it going, is that a good idea?

No...

You need to fix the problem, adding anything else may compound the problem you have already

You say you added a yeast starter but it isn't doing much......

was the starter well underway when you added it?

I'm pretty sure (95%)that this is the cause of your troubles, the starter needs to be really active when you pitch it...if it isn't it will likely fizzle out,(because by adding it to the must you have diluted it many fold) doesn't mean it wont kick into gear, but pitching a not very active starter is not going to work very well, as there is not a viable colony of yeasties to do their work, first job....prepare another starter and make sure it is active, if it turns out you didn't need it you can save it for later...see link later in post for info on yeast starters



a properly prepared (and active) starter in a balanced must should take off like a train

info on correct preparation of yeast starters here,

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=908

you also don't state what size of batch this is... if it is (as i suspect it might be) a 23 litre batch then thats an awful lot of acid you have added. what made you add that much? was it from a recipe?
you also state 15ml of sulphate powder...... powder is measured by weight and we use Sulphite (different product) clarity is needed for us to give you the correct (hopefully) advice, please advise which product you are using, and how much of it.

hope this helps
regards
Bob

[StockeyDAW]

I would also include that your SG starting level 1.030 is low; bring it up to 1.090. Add some more sugar until you reach that SG level. Cheers DAW

[lockwood1956]

measured s.g. 1.030
added 3 ½ kg sugar to make s.g. 1.080

C'mon Daw.....get with the plan

only kidding dude

[StockeyDAW]

Oh! did not note that extra bit at the end. Must read a little more closely. Cheers DAW

[StockeyDAW]

After the SG was pointed out I would next assess the sulphate? as out leader indicates. Not sure what product you used - you may have used to much - for potassium metabisulphite approx 29 grams in 1 litre of cool water then add approx 33 ml of that for us gallon or 40 ml to an Imperial gallon. The yeast will not start if you used to much? Cheers - hope this is not the case? DAW

[StockeyDAW]

If the sulphite is the problem - to much added! then there are a couple solutions? you may be fortunate that you have many pears are at your hand - this would enable dilution of your present batch to the levels of sulphites indicated, the levels would have to be figured out? You could also try aeration - pouring the batch from primary to primary to try to get as much air as possible through it to try and air out some of the excess sulphite? Unfortunately I have experienced this with an apricot batch - never could get the yeast to start - but I did not have many apricots at hand at least you have lots of pears? Cheers DAW Agree with this Bob and all?

[valleydaz]

To answer some of the questions;

1. the starter was not really doing much
2. its a 25 litre batch
3. the acids i added was from the advice on the tubs (not the best idea now i think about it)
4. the sulphate i used was kaliumpyrosulphite E224
in a mix of 50g powder to 500ml water

can i do something about the acid?

cheers

[lockwood1956]

To answer some of the questions;

1. the starter was not really doing much
2. its a 25 litre batch
3. the acids i added was from the advice on the tubs (not the best idea now i think about it)
4. the sulphate i used was kaliumpyrosulphite E224
in a mix of 50g powder to 500ml water

can i do something about the acid?

cheers

1.Then a fresh starter needs to be prepared
3.Acids can be reduced, but do you have the ability to test the actual acid content?
4. so its sulphite you are using NOT sulphate, the distinction is quite important as they are radically different substances, (don't recognise the product you describe) however in a 10% solution you have added 15ml which which is an acceptable level. so you have around the equivalent of 3 campden tablets in there.


So the yeast not being very active at the start is likely the cause of the problem, although the high acids may not be helping.

Prepare a fresh starter, and when its well underway add some of the must to the starter and see how it progresses.
how does the must taste?
is it very acidic?

regards
Bob

[StockeyDAW]

To answer some of the questions;

1. the starter was not really doing much
2. its a 25 litre batch
3. the acids i added was from the advice on the tubs (not the best idea now i think about it)
4. the sulphate i used was kaliumpyrosulphite E224
in a mix of 50g powder to 500ml water

can i do something about the acid?

cheers

The article potassium belongs to the category: potassium compound sulphite
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob and Valley D just to confirm that kaliumpyrosulphite E224 is acceptable sulfite as translated below by google:





Strukturformel Structural formula

Allgemeines General
Name Kaliumdisulfit Potassium
Andere Namen Other names Kaliummetabisulfit, Kaliumpyrosulfit, E224 Kaliummetabisulfit, Kaliumpyrosulfit, E224
Summenformel Molecular formula K 2 S 2 O 5 K 2 S 2 O 5
CAS-Nummer CAS 16731-55-8
Kurzbeschreibung Brief Description weißes Pulver, das nach Schwefeldioxid riecht White powder, which smells of sulfur
Eigenschaften Properties
Molmasse Molecular weight 222,33 g ·mol -1 222.33 g mol -1
Aggregatzustand Aggregate fest Notes
Dichte Density 2,34 g· cm -3 2.34 g cm -3
Schmelzpunkt Melting point 190 °C (Zersetzung) 190 ° C (decomposition)
Siedepunkt Boiling point °C ° C
Dampfdruck Vapor Pressure Pa (x °C) Pa (x ° C)


Löslichkeit Solubility löslich in Wasser, unlöslich in Alkohol Soluble in water, insoluble in alcohol
Sicherheitshinweise Safety Precautions



R- und S-Sätze R-and S-phrases R: 31-36/37 R: 31-36/37
S: 26,39 S: 26.39
MAK MAK , LD50 oral Ratte 2300mg/kg , Rat oral LD50 2300mg/kg
Soweit möglich und gebräuchlich, werden SI-Einheiten verwendet. Where possible, and used to be SI units. Wenn nicht anders vermerkt, gelten die angegebenen Daten bei Standardbedingungen . Unless otherwise noted, the data presented in standard conditions.


Kaliumdisulfit ist eine chemische Verbindung die vor allem als Konservierungsstoff (E224) in der Lebensmittelindustrie eingesetzt wird. Potassium is a chemical compound which primarily as a preservative substance (E224) in the food industry.

Gewinnung und Darstellung Extraction and Presentation
Sulfite allgemein entstehen bei der Reaktion von Schwefeldioxid mit Wasser in folgenden zwei Schritten: Sulphites generally arise in the reaction of sulfur with water in the following two steps:

SO 2 + H 2 O ↔ HSO 3 - + H + SO 2 + H 2 O ↔ HSO 3 - + H +
HSO 3 - ↔ SO 3 2- + H + HSO 3-↔ SO 3 2 - + H +

Chemische Eigenschaften Chemical Properties
Kaliumdisulfit ist ein Kaliumsalz der schwefligen Säure. Potassium is a potassium salt of sulfur acid.
Verwendung Use
Kaliumdisulfit wird als Konservierungsstoff , Antioxidationsmittel , Farbstabilisator in Lebensmitteln (z. B. auch bei der Schwefelung von Wein ) verwendet. Potassium is used as a preservative substance, anti-oxidants, color stabilizer in food (for example, when sulphuring of wine). Weiterhin dient es allgemein als Reduktionsmittel in der chemischen Industrie, zum Bleichen von Zucker, als Ätzmittel in der Elektronikindustrie und als Bestandteil von Fixiermittel n in der Photoindustrie. Furthermore, it generally serves as a reducing agent in the chemical industry, the bleaching of sugar, as caustics in the electronics industry and as part of fixative, in the photographic industry.
siehe auch See also
Kaliumsulfit Potassium
Wiki/Weblinks Wiki / Weblinks
[LINK] [LINK] [LINK] [LINK] [LINK] [LINK]



For your acid reduction or increase for that matter this can be done. Firstly you will need an Titratable Acid (TA) test - as our leader mentioned do you have any acid testing equipment ie: Acid Testing Kits (various kinds) or a pH meter? For the clear wine of the pear the acid testing kits would work OK. For wine making acid testing is undertaken prior to the start of fermentation and adjusted after you have the TA figure. For non grape white the % of acidity range should be .55-.60%. This could be adjusted upward or downward at this time. You can also do TA after the fermentation process for wine and adjust at that time if necessary.

Cheers - Here's hoping the Yeast restart works!

[Hippie]

When pitching yeast or a yeast starter, always just very easily pour or lay it very slowly onto the top of the must. Immediately before doing this, stir the must very well. Do not stir the yeast into the must, leave it be for 24 hours. After it seems to be going really well, then stir it very well and if pulp is included in must, stir or punch down at least twice daily. Kinda got off topic rambling, I know.

[valleydaz]

Thankyou all for the feedback,

I don't have an acid tester unfortunatly, but I have tasted the must and could not really notice an acid taste (a sharp taste i presume)

I made up a starter yesterday at 7.30pm from boiling a little of the must, letting it cool then adding the champagne yeast. its in a wine bottle now and doing nothing. Should I make up one with water, sugar and nutrient instead?

I also checked the s.g. now and it was 1070, I used the sugar table at the start to add the right amount or sugar to get it up to 1080 but never checked after adding it in

When stirring the must today there were some bubbles but nothing happening with the air lock (which I have on to see when it starts doing something)

p.s. that is some technical stuff you got there stocky

cheers

[Duffbeer]

Thankyou all for the feedback,

I don't have an acid tester unfortunatly, but I have tasted the must and could not really notice an acid taste (a sharp taste i presume)

I made up a starter yesterday at 7.30pm from boiling a little of the must, letting it cool then adding the champagne yeast. its in a wine bottle now and doing nothing. Should I make up one with water, sugar and nutrient instead?

I also checked the s.g. now and it was 1070, I used the sugar table at the start to add the right amount or sugar to get it up to 1080 but never checked after adding it in

When stirring the must today there were some bubbles but nothing happening with the air lock (which I have on to see when it starts doing something)

p.s. that is some technical stuff you got there stocky

cheers

My thoughts are still that your yeast has become useless due to damp (lid being loose as you stated). But to ensure it's not a problem with the must try a yeast starter with sugar and water.

Also you don't want an airlock fitted in primary (the yeast needs oxigen at this stage), cover with a loose lid or towel, something to keep airborn nasties out.

If your starting sg was 1,080 and is now 1.070 then it's fermenting, airlocks are not a good way to judge fermentation as you may have leakage. Take another sg reading later and if it's dropped again then ferment is underway.

[StockeyDAW]

Thankyou all for the feedback,

I don't have an acid tester unfortunatly, but I have tasted the must and could not really notice an acid taste (a sharp taste i presume)

I made up a starter yesterday at 7.30pm from boiling a little of the must, letting it cool then adding the champagne yeast. its in a wine bottle now and doing nothing. Should I make up one with water, sugar and nutrient instead?

I also checked the s.g. now and it was 1070, I used the sugar table at the start to add the right amount or sugar to get it up to 1080 but never checked after adding it in

When stirring the must today there were some bubbles but nothing happening with the air lock (which I have on to see when it starts doing something)

p.s. that is some technical stuff you got there stocky

cheers

VD you should have certainly seen some activity in that yeast starter that you made? Fresh yeast? not expired? Did you pitch when the temperature after boiling was approximately 100 degrees F (38 C)?

Yes you can just rehydrate the yeast from the package in water that has been heated to that temperature or to as much as 109 degrees F (43 C). I use this method all the time and it works for me.


You mentioned when stirring that you noticed some bubbles and that the SG was now at 1.070 - seems that you have fermentation going there? Are the pears tied off in a nylon straining bag? Is the temperature at approximately 70 degrees F ( 21 C). If to cold will be slow - you could use a heating pad of heating brewing belt to get a warmer temperature if necessary? Cheers Nature will take its way .
The technical stuff that is what is on the German description of the sulphite - ya not for the layman but if we read between the lines we can see it is what we were looking for. Cheers DAW