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  • #31
    Yes Glenvall both of those, but I maybe am confusing myself here!

    Cant find a reference to adding it after the event.

    But its in a Dry red so shouldnt be needed anyhow

    cheers
    bob
    N.G.W.B.J.
    Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
    Wine, mead and beer maker

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Hippie View Post
      I thought the sorbate/mlf bad thang was when you add sorbate to a wine that has not finished mlf or if you start mlf in a wine that contains sorbate.

      I think I have confused myself now!

      I think you've done a fine job of confusing me too!

      I just won't add sorbate at all.

      But to play devil's advocate, what would you do if you wanted to backsweeten? Does that mean you can never backsweeten a wine that's gone through MLF?
      Virtual Wine Circle & Competition Co-Founder
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      • #33
        Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
        YAY
        so initial ferment complete, the MLF should take around 4 weeks (ish) depending on conditions.

        if you put your ear to the carbuoy you will hear it fizzing, just be careful not to introduce too much O2 (MLF yeasties dont like it) it will smell a little "cheesy" too.

        Campden tabs are ok once MLF is done, but potassium sorbate isnt.

        regards
        Bob

        Oh oh... Just read this. So, how can you monitor if/when MLF is finished? How do you know it's 4 weeks?
        Virtual Wine Circle & Competition Co-Founder
        Twitter: VirtualWineO
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        • #34
          Was kinda my point in a roundabout way.

          You must know when the mlf is finished so that the wine can be properly stabilized with sulphite AND sorbate if you plan on sweetening. The sulphite has to be enough (50 ppm?) so that the mlf does not ever refire and thus it is safe to also add sorbate later and sweeten.

          Am I missing something?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Danina View Post
            But to play devil's advocate, what would you do if you wanted to backsweeten? Does that mean you can never backsweeten a wine that's gone through MLF?
            I would use a non fermentable sugar

            then I know /I wont ever get a referment, as the wine is stabilised by conversion of malicacid to lactic acid and there is no sugar in the wine.


            but I'm pretty sure I read somwhere (still cant recall where) that sorbate and MLF (before or after) is a bad combo
            N.G.W.B.J.
            Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
            Wine, mead and beer maker

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Danina View Post
              Oh oh... Just read this. So, how can you monitor if/when MLF is finished? How do you know it's 4 weeks?
              4 weeks is what the manufacturers claim.
              However you can run tests to see if MLF is complete...

              either Chromatography (expensive)
              How do you tell if your malolactic fermentation is done?  With our Paper Chromatograpy test kit! Use it to tell if your malolactic fermentation has...


              or those nice test kits from Mike Miller who was at winefest this year...nice guy



              hope this helps

              as you all know by now...I love running tests

              regards
              Bob
              N.G.W.B.J.
              Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
              Wine, mead and beer maker

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              • #37
                Thanks again, Bob, Yorkshire Bob - Mr. Tester - Mr. Athlete - Mr. Winemaker!

                Virtual Wine Circle & Competition Co-Founder
                Twitter: VirtualWineO
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                • #38
                  Too funny


                  you wouldn't be teasing me now would you D?
                  N.G.W.B.J.
                  Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                  Wine, mead and beer maker

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                  • #39
                    Regarding the sorbate-MLF thing, here's the scoop: when malolactic bacteria consumes potassium sorbate it produces a substance called geraniol, which smells like rotting geraniums. It is an irreversible fault. However, If the MLB are sterile filtered out of the wine, or otherwise incapacitated (lysozyme will do the trick, I wouldn't depend solely on SO2), it is safe to add sorbate.

                    Most folks just avoid it because the risk is too great.

                    By the way, I don't grow geraniums so I never really understood the comparison. Having smelled the stuff once in a wine tasting class, I would compare it to rotten plant material in general.

                    Yorkshire Bob, I'm surprised they don't have you carry a vial of geraniol in your judging kit so you can detect wines that have this fault.

                    Minnesota Steve
                    Last edited by NorthernWiner; 10-10-2007, 08:48 PM.
                    Steve

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                    • #40
                      Steve, I've stewarded a few classes that contained Geranium and trust me the smell is so pungent it's hard to miss, once the cork is removed geranium is obvious and vile Yorkshire Bob!!! now thats a new one...lmao
                      Discount Home Brew Supplies
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                        you wouldn't be teasing me now would you D?
                        Of course not. Just realised all of your talents!

                        Originally posted by NorthernWiner View Post
                        Regarding the sorbate-MLF thing, here's the scoop: when malolactic bacteria consumes potassium sorbate it produces a substance called geraniol, which smells like rotting geraniums. It is an irreversible fault. However, If the MLB are sterile filtered out of the wine, or otherwise incapacitated (lysozyme will do the trick, I wouldn't depend solely on SO2), it is safe to add sorbate.

                        Most folks just avoid it because the risk is too great.
                        Okay, so do I have this correct?
                        SO2 = okay
                        Sorbate = not okay

                        If I want to sweeten afterwards, I use a non-fermentable sugar?
                        Virtual Wine Circle & Competition Co-Founder
                        Twitter: VirtualWineO
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                        • #42
                          Spot on Danina, we can purposely buy wine sweetener here which is very good in with the addition of glycerine. Many non fermentable sweeteners tend to contain saccharin which has a distinctive taste and in my opinion not good. This would exclude the need to sorbate..
                          Discount Home Brew Supplies
                          Chairman of 5 Towns Wine & Beer Makers Circle!
                          Convenor of Judges YFAWB Show Committee
                          National Wine Judge
                          N.G.W.B.J Member

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                          • #43
                            Well, I have tried various non-fermentable sugars, and in my opinion, they leave an "off" taste to the wine. We must be talking about the same thing. I have tried splenda, whis is hideous, in my opinion. I am very leery about trying anything else.

                            However, this brings up a point for me: What do the "big wineries" do? Sterile filter? Use sorbitol? If sorbitol, do you use powdered or liquid forms? Any off tastes there?
                            Virtual Wine Circle & Competition Co-Founder
                            Twitter: VirtualWineO
                            Facebook: Virtual Wine Circle

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Danina View Post
                              Okay, so do I have this correct?
                              SO2 = okay
                              SO2 is okay once MLF is finished. The little ML bugs are quite sensitive to the stuff.
                              Steve

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Danina View Post
                                However, this brings up a point for me: What do the "big wineries" do? Sterile filter? Use sorbitol? If sorbitol, do you use powdered or liquid forms? Any off tastes there?
                                Almost any wine, white or red, that has undergone MLF is not sweetened. And any wine that will be sweetened does not undergo MLF.

                                Wineries in the US aren't allowed to add artificial sweeteners. I don't know about other countries, but I'd bet the French or Australians can't use it either.

                                Hypothetically speaking, if a winery wanted to sweeten an MLF wine, they would likely either flash pasteurise it or sterile filter.
                                Steve

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