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  • Fruit addition timeline experiment

    AN EXPERIMENT IN METHODOLOGY
    (maybe we have been doing it wrong for years?)

    Two wines, made from the same ingredients, at the same time, but using different methods of extraction, the hope being that we can demonstrate that adding fruit later in the ferment retains more of the phenols (colour and flavour compounds) or goodness of the fruit by not exposing it to the more violent early stages of a normal pulp fermentation, and having these elements "blown away" with the CO2.

    The ingredients for both wines are the same

    To make 4.54 Litres (1 Imperial gallon)

    500ml (16 fl oz) (2 cups) Red grape concentrate
    227g (8oz) (1 cup) Elderberries
    227g (8oz) (1 cup) Blackberries
    227g (8oz) (1 cup) Raspberries
    227g (8oz) (1 cup) Blackcurrants
    113g (4oz) (1/2 cup) Bananas
    540g (19 oz) (2.4 cups) Sugar
    2 teaspoons Pectolase
    No yeast nutrient required.

    (How about that for international measurements?...likely all wrong!)

    You could if you wished alter the amounts or indeed remove some ingredients if you didn't like them, raspberries for instance, but as long as both wines contain the same ingredients this is the basis of the experiment.

    Make up a large (500ml) yeast starter with a good quality yeast using 100ml Red grape concentrate a pinch of yeast nutrine a pinch of acid and 400 ml water, and allow to build up a head of steam overnight.
    ( I would recommend Lalvin K1V-1116 as it is great for red fruit flavour retention but you could use Lalvin 71B-1122, or Gervin varietal D as good fruit expression yeasts)

    more info on yeast starters here


    Prepare Wine B using standard techniques
    patuerise the red fruits by bringing just to the boil with 500ml water and cooling rapidly then adding the (peeled) bananas and mashing using a potato masher, place the pulp in a straining bag and add the red grape concentrate and three pints of water, add 2 tsp pectolase and pitch 250ml of the pre prepared yeast starter, after two days add the sugar, and ferment on the pulp for a further 2 days (4 in total) remove the straining bag and dunk gently in 1 pint warm water, then add this water to the must transfer to demijohn and top up to just below the neck of the DJ and ferment to dryness, racking and topping up etc in the normal manner.

    Age for two to three months before the side by side trials

    Wine A prepared as follows
    starting the same time as wine B add 250ml yeast starter to the red grape concentrate, and ferment adding the sugar in two stages, half at three days and the other half at six days, keeping an eye on the SG and when it dropped below 1.010 patuerise the red fruits the same way as in the recipe for wine B adding the banana and mashing with a potato masher, adding it with the pectolase to the already fermenting must and ferment on the pulp rack when residual sugar is all gone, then rack, top up and finish as normal.

    Age for three months before running the side by side comparison.

    The wines should finish within a couple of days of each other. The main difference here in the two wines is the late addition of the fruit to wine A.

    When it comes time to do the side by side comparison, it is best to do this blind (i.e. not know which wine is which) so maybe get someone else to label them for you, or cover up the labels and have someone "shuffle" the bottles for you.

    From an idea by Bill Smith in "award winning wines"
    ISBN 1-85486-209-X


    I have been meaning to run this experiment for some time and conduct the tasting as a "talk" at pontefract wine circle next year...

    maybe I will get it started now ...... thanks for the push


    regards
    Bob
    Last edited by lockwood1956; 21-08-2009, 03:24 PM.
    N.G.W.B.J.
    Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
    Wine, mead and beer maker

  • #2
    Other ways

    The book you mention sounds really interesting Bob, I have just ordered a copy to add to my library.

    I think I will try to run a similar experiment as well, however I'm tempted to run three variations rather than two. These would be:

    1) Conventional initial pulp fermentation == your wine B)
    2) Late pulp fermentation == your wine A)
    3) Conventional initial pulp fermentation but reserving the juice and adding it late in fermentation.

    I'm thinking this third variation has some value (provided you accept the extra labour of pressing the fruit) as it should still preserve a lot of the delicate fruit character (which we assume is mostly in the juice not the pulp) while allowing full complexity from the pulp to develop. It would also avoid potential, possibly non existent, problems to do with alcohol selectively extracting excess tanin from the fruit and allow conventional retention of the pulp for a fixed time. I'm a bit suspicious of adding the pulp late and then retaining for an indeterminate time until fermentation has finished - that may work well for low tannin fruits but I can see trouble looming with a batch of elderberries if it takes a long time to ferment to dryness.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Bob, I am on a real roll now, 3 posts in a day!!!
      Bob I am very keen to try out your experiment.
      I have had Bill Smith's book since 2004 & strangely my wines seemed to have improved dramatically since then???
      I have in the past carried out experiments on Elderberry wines side by side but only using Michiel Pesgens recipe.
      One wine boiling the Elderberries & the other not.Every thing else the same.
      The boiled Elderberry wine was "better" as soon as it was finished but after a couple of years the two wines were very similar.
      I am keen to carry out your experiments & will do so after the Lincs Fed show in Sept.

      Thanks Silverfox

      Comment


      • #4
        My initial short trial with greengages, of adding 1lb of fruit when the original batch of greengage wine reached 1.010 has worked as such. It has definitely strengthen the taste, but the sweet edge has gone, so its more tart! ,slightly bitter. I'm going to let it go to the end then back sweeten and compare to the basic greengage made at the same time.

        Made BIG error I think, forgot to add any pectolase to the addition.


        I'm also wondering about the lychee experiment I want to do. My base wine is stabilised with about 12%, will this be strong enough to prevent any added fruit rotting if I want to leave it in the wine long term to leech flavours.

        Comment


        • #5
          just got hold of the book its very very interesting some very good ideas in it, it does show how poor my wine making meathods are though, i will have to start doing this wime making properly
          Wine from grapes is alright, but nothing beats the proper stuff to make wine with.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well we all learn from each other in this winemaking mallarkey
            N.G.W.B.J.
            Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
            Wine, mead and beer maker

            Comment


            • #7
              Started this experiment today, it smells fabulous
              N.G.W.B.J.
              Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
              Wine, mead and beer maker

              Comment


              • #8
                Altered the recipe slightly


                500ml Red grape concentrate
                700ml Elderberry Juice (from Germany)
                1 411g tin Morrison's Blackberries
                1 411g tin Morrison's Raspberries
                1 470g jar PEK Blackcurrants
                2 Bananas
                540g (19 oz) (2.4 cups) Sugar
                2 teaspoons Pectolase
                N.G.W.B.J.
                Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                Wine, mead and beer maker

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello Bob,

                  How did you get on with this one?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It was the basis of the talk i gave to Pontefract wine circle in November, and will be the talk im giving at Doncaster circle in Feb

                    the difference between the two wines is staggering

                    the late fruit addition version retains much much much more of the fruit taste and aroma, is smoother, and just better quality in every way

                    you wouldnt think they were made from the same stuff
                    N.G.W.B.J.
                    Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                    Wine, mead and beer maker

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Looks good Bob, I'm going to give this a go with christmas pud wine

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wouldnt recommend it with christmas pud wine

                        reason being i want the active part of ferment to push to the top the fat and crud from the pud to the surface so i can skim it off

                        would be interested to see if it worked though if you did a side by side

                        i have often wondered if the same wine could be made using the raw ingredients that went into the pud (ie minus the fat and meat products)
                        N.G.W.B.J.
                        Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                        Wine, mead and beer maker

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OK had some of this left in the cellar (in swing top bottles that are around 770ml) so had a little taste.....they have become very similar, although I think the late fruit addition one still just has the edge....

                          I have entered them in the comp at Scarborough in a weeks time....see how they do
                          N.G.W.B.J.
                          Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                          Wine, mead and beer maker

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            entered both wines in the Fed comp at scarborough on saturday.

                            The pulp fermented version scored a highly commended and the late fruit addition version took a 2nd

                            proof of the pudding eh?
                            N.G.W.B.J.
                            Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                            Wine, mead and beer maker

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm glad to be part of this awesome forum. My wine making hobby is just blossoming

                              I was just thinking, how do you balance the sugars in the fruit to equate the end alcohol level if you are adding after the violent fermentation?

                              Also, do you think that the fruit has extra nutrient for the yeast to eat?

                              Any difference between adding fresh fruit and boiled fruit? IE blueberries have more intense flavour after boiling them...

                              Just some ideas, I'll start experimenting as well after moving house in a couple of weeks.

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