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  • #16
    I have a cartridge filter that I use when vacuum racking. With the right cartridge you can do sterile filtering all the way down to .25 microns (I've used ceramic cartridges for this purpose), however, it filters very, very slowly at that depth. Almost more like a trickle. Even though it's pulling a vacuum, I would still worry a bit about oxygen exposure, since it isn't a complete vacuum.
    Steve

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    • #17
      Originally posted by NorthernWiner View Post
      I have a cartridge filter that I use when vacuum racking. With the right cartridge you can do sterile filtering all the way down to .25 microns (I've used ceramic cartridges for this purpose), however, it filters very, very slowly at that depth. Almost more like a trickle. Even though it's pulling a vacuum, I would still worry a bit about oxygen exposure, since it isn't a complete vacuum.
      Is that after running it through on a larger size Steve ? Only because I understand about the "plate" filters used by commercial setups and from memory, they'll stick it through up to 20 different sized screens with the final one being the size that they want to finish at........

      Obviously if you have a housing that takes the circular type filters then you can only run one gauge at a time......

      Then, I'd have thought that having already screened out the rest of the debris that you want to remove you should be able to get things going a little faster ???

      regards

      jtfb
      Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

      Some blog ramblings

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      • #18
        Nice setup chief. Gotta ask if the acid cleaner is the same as Starsan?

        As a second question, how much of a vacuum are you pullin on those bottles? I have a phobia of vacuums after I accidently distilled liquid oxygen in a nitrogen vacuum distillation chamber. Not likely here I'll admit but vacuum is a dangerous thing, especially with glass. Any tips for us mere mortals who hide in wait to annex your garden shed?
        Dutch Gunderson: Who are you and how did you get in here?
        Frank Drebin: I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.
        -Police Squad

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        • #19
          The enolmatic pulls between 5 and 32 inches (it has a variable speed motor)
          N.G.W.B.J.
          Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
          Wine, mead and beer maker

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          • #20
            Originally posted by koomber View Post
            Nice setup chief. Gotta ask if the acid cleaner is the same as Starsan?
            I'm not sure....I have both, so will check the labels and see......they are both acid based no rinse cleaners, so maybe
            N.G.W.B.J.
            Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
            Wine, mead and beer maker

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            • #21
              Originally posted by fatbloke View Post
              Is that after running it through on a larger size Steve ?
              Yes, I typically start at the 5 micron range and gradually work down to .45. I actually bought the .25 cartridge just to experiment with, but haven't used it on anything more than a gallon at a time.

              Also note I only do this sort of extreme filtering with residual sugar dessert wines. I think part of the slowness has to do with the fact that these wines tend to be very viscous due to the high sugar content.
              Steve

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              • #22
                Originally posted by NorthernWiner View Post
                Yes, I typically start at the 5 micron range and gradually work down to .45. I actually bought the .25 cartridge just to experiment with, but haven't used it on anything more than a gallon at a time.

                Also note I only do this sort of extreme filtering with residual sugar dessert wines. I think part of the slowness has to do with the fact that these wines tend to be very viscous due to the high sugar content.
                well from memory, the dessert meads I had last or the year before were all about the 1040 range and it was like drinking watered down honey.

                So as you say, it's probable that it could easily be more to do with the sugar content....

                Though I seem to recall that the enolmatic machines also have it's to adapt it to bottle oils and some juices - though I shouldn't think that you'd be using a 0.25 micron filter for that.......

                regards

                jtfb
                Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

                Some blog ramblings

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                • #23
                  Is the active ingredient acid citric ? Hence the no rinse?
                  Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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                  • #24
                    *Prepares his chemistry head*

                    Starsan cleaner is a mixture of DDBSA (a surfactant) and phosphoric acid (the acid).

                    The reason that Starsan is 'no-rinse' is down to dilllution. Starsan is essentally this:

                    Phosphoric Acid (75%) 50%
                    Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid (DDBSA) 15%
                    Magical mystery ingredients (35%)

                    So our 1mL of Starsan is really only 0.75mL of phosphoric acid. Your using 1 in 1000 dilution for that so now you've got 0.00075mL of phosphoric acid in your cleaner.

                    You've swirled and chucked out the sanitizer and topped up your DJ with water so you've now diluted it even more. therefore the effect it will have on the pH of the must is zip.

                    The intersting thing about Starsan is the DDBSA. this serves two functions:

                    1. It softens the cell walls of bacteria and bugs allowing the phosphoric to kill em with a shorter contact time (If memory serves, Starsan has a 30 second contact time and a 99.9% Kill rate)

                    2. DDBSA foams like a mofo. I can not possibly overstate how much DDBSA foams. Even with 75% phosphoric acid in it, it STILL foams. The nice thing is in Starsan, the foam kills the nasties too. But it's also subject to the dilution mentioned earlier so you can leave the foam in the DJ. (This is mostly of the US homebrew forums where they are more familiar with Starsan, personally, I 'fear the foam' as they say.

                    As for the other 35%, thats IPA (solvent) and some other surfactants which enable the phosphoric acid and the DDBSA to mix (they are imicible).

                    For those who are interested, here's a link to the patent for a low foam version.

                    Low foaming acid sanitizer compositions containing anionic surfactants which normally exhibit high-foaming, e.g. dodecyl benzene sulfonic acid, are obtained by incorporating in the composition a foam


                    Here they've incorporated a foam suppresant. I'm guessing that in an industrial situation where you might have high shear during your mix, it would be possible to generate ALOT of foam and you'll wind up in a situation very similar to putting too much washing up liquid in a washing machine.

                    I've made up my own Starsan in the past (though I didn't put any of the stabilising ingredients in since this would require a bit of investigation) and I've not had any problems (one of the advantages of working in a lab )
                    Dutch Gunderson: Who are you and how did you get in here?
                    Frank Drebin: I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.
                    -Police Squad

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                    • #25
                      The label is in French, but it lists Citric first so it must be the dominant one (15%) but next is listed lactic acid (10-15%) or my French might not be up to the job!
                      N.G.W.B.J.
                      Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                      Wine, mead and beer maker

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                        The label is in French, but it lists Citric first so it must be the dominant one (15%) but next is listed lactic acid (10-15%) or my French might not be up to the job!
                        Damn Frenchies! Just kidding

                        Is that in the chemipro stuff?

                        The acid used isn't critical apparently (I've been reading through the patent at work. Nobody suspects I'm not working so long as I'm rading patents).

                        From what the patent says it is the pH that is critical. This makes sense since pH is measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions in a solution. Phosphoric acid is used because it is cheap and strong.

                        I'm wondering if perhaps it is due to legislation or some such (citric and lactic acids are found in wines?). I must try to get an MSDS from them!
                        Dutch Gunderson: Who are you and how did you get in here?
                        Frank Drebin: I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.
                        -Police Squad

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                        • #27
                          The problem I have with these "no rinse" formulations is this:

                          they are covered in warnings as to what they will do to you if they land on your eyes, skin or clothes.....they then suggest that I don't rinse thoroughly......hmmmmmm bugger that for a game of soldiers

                          it would seem that chemipro acid is different then, especially as it carries no health warnings on the label

                          regards
                          Bob
                          N.G.W.B.J.
                          Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                          Wine, mead and beer maker

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                          • #28
                            I have enjoyed this conversation LOL in places- thanks - fear the foam indeed and fear the 'no rinse'.

                            I a sticking to a 66/33% mix of pot met and citric acid. Rinsed with 50% vodka. I hope I never meet the bug that survives that.
                            Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
                              I a sticking to a 66/33% mix of pot met and citric acid.
                              And the other 1%?

                              lol
                              N.G.W.B.J.
                              Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                              Wine, mead and beer maker

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
                                I have enjoyed this conversation LOL in places- thanks - fear the foam indeed and fear the 'no rinse'.

                                I a sticking to a 66/33% mix of pot met and citric acid. Rinsed with 50% vodka. I hope I never meet the bug that survives that.
                                BAH! Real men use hydroflouric acid!

                                Hwo do you know it's sterile? THE GLASS IS ETCHED.
                                How do you know you've made it too strong? YOU LOOSE AN ARM.
                                How do you judge the acid content of the must afterwards? IT TASTES OF PAIN.

                                Just kidding. I think there is a certain amount of OTT from some quarters regarding sanitization. After all booze has pretty much followed culture and civillisation and I'm certain they didn't have no-rinse sanitizers!
                                Dutch Gunderson: Who are you and how did you get in here?
                                Frank Drebin: I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.
                                -Police Squad

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