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Elderflower Champs, sugar question.

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  • #31
    I think you are missing the point. It doesn't matter how weak the wine is. You are still priming with a certain amount of sugar, and that will generate a certain amount of CO2. The alcohol content of the wine doesn't make a difference (unless it is so strong that the yeast dies first).
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    • #32
      Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
      no....
      (you cannot get beer this low, for reasons i wont go into just now, but its to do with attenuation being quite different in beers)
      Bob
      Isn't attenuation another name for the point I'm making about SG & FG??

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      • #33
        Originally posted by goldseal View Post
        I think you are missing the point. It doesn't matter how weak the wine is. You are still priming with a certain amount of sugar, and that will generate a certain amount of CO2. The alcohol content of the wine doesn't make a difference (unless it is so strong that the yeast dies first).
        It does if the brew is bottled with residual sugar, as is the case with beer. The weaker the drink, the less residual sugar there is at 1.000. In the case of wine intended to be 12% (cava or champagne), an FG of 1.000 indicates a significant amount of residual sugar, possibly enough to make the bottles explode and almost certainly enough if the bottles are primed as well. In beer, an FG of 1.000 indicates very little residual sugar.

        The problem is that specific gravity is not proportional to sugar concentration. Both sugar and alcohol affect it, sugar raising it and alcohol lowering it. The lower the OG, the less sugar a brew has at 1.000 and the less dangerous it is to bottle. Obviously wines with high SGs are very dangerous to bottle too early for the reasons Bob has spelt out so clearly.

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        • #34
          You are perfectly correct that a beer at 1.006 has not much sugar left in it, a wine at 1.006 has quite a lot of sugar left.

          the real point is that we need to know how much sugar there is in the bottle before the cork goes in (if that makes sense)


          the strength of the wine doesnt determine how much sugar is left in it, the hydrometer reading does, it is much easier to determine the residual sugar in a wine than a beer.

          I think we are somehow misunderstanding each other perhaps. Msaking beer and making sparkly wine are two totally different animals, in wine we are dealing with a must that will ferment down to 0.990 given the right conditions.

          A wine at any reading above 0.990 has sugar left in it, that will ferment out, unless the ferment is stuck, and if the ferment is stuck, it wont carbonate in the bottle. it is understanding this premise that is key. beer makers are used to bottling at higher gravities, that is because beer ferments very rarely if ever drop below 1.000, this is because the yeast cannot attenuate the sugars in the beer any lower than this. so if you add more sugar to a beer at 1.006 it will ferment it out, creating the fizz, and stop again at 1.006

          priming a wine at 1.006 will result in it fermenting potentially down to 0.990 creating way too much pressure, by converting the sugar you prime with, and the sugar present.

          So the ferment really must be finished before you prime. This is the point I am trying to make.

          I hope that makes sense

          regards
          Bob
          N.G.W.B.J.
          Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
          Wine, mead and beer maker

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          • #35
            Originally posted by blackcurrant View Post
            The lower the OG, the less sugar a brew has at 1.000 and the less dangerous it is to bottle. .
            I'm afraid you are incorrect in this assumption

            the Specific gravity tells you (fairly closely) how much sugar is left in the wine, or near enough for our purposes, a wine reading 0.990 oh the hydrometer is dry, containing no or miniscule amounts of sugar.

            the lower the OG the less alcohol the wine contains at 1.000

            a wine started at 1.090 and one started at 1.020 contain the same amount of residual sugar when they both read 1.000 (or near enough)

            a wine at 1.000 contains quite a bit of sugar not yet fermented and this amount of residual sugar is the same no matter what the OG was at the start.

            as a rough guide (all sorts of thigs affect this) 8 ounces of sugar in a gallon will move the hyrometer reading up by 0.009
            Last edited by lockwood1956; 06-07-2010, 10:41 AM.
            N.G.W.B.J.
            Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
            Wine, mead and beer maker

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            • #36
              Originally posted by blackcurrant View Post
              Obviously wines with high SGs are very dangerous to bottle too early for the reasons Bob has spelt out so clearly.
              absolutely spot on
              N.G.W.B.J.
              Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
              Wine, mead and beer maker

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              • #37
                Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                You are perfectly correct that a beer at
                I think we are somehow misunderstanding each other perhaps. Msaking beer and making sparkly wine are two totally different animals, in wine we are dealing with a must that will ferment down to 0.990 given the right conditions.
                Bob
                I agree that wine and beer are totally different animals, but where does elderflower champagne fit it? Tradiational elderflower champagne is meant to be a "mildly alcoholic" fizzy drink made from water, elderflowers, lemon juice and sugar, not an 11% wine.

                Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                Ybeer makers are used to bottling at higher gravities, that is because beer ferments very rarely if ever drop below 1.000, this is because the yeast cannot attenuate the sugars in the beer any lower than this. so if you add more sugar to a beer at 1.006 it will ferment it out, creating the fizz, and stop again at 1.006
                Bob
                That's very interesting. I can't see how the gravity can stay above 1.000 in a beer after fermentation has finished unless there are unfermentable sugars. Otherwise beer must follow the same laws of physics as wine, with its density determined by alcohol %. There are no unfermentable sugars in elderflower champers so I guess it will go under 1.000, even though it's only 6% alcohol?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                  I'm afraid you are incorrect in this assumption

                  the Specific gravity tells you (fairly closely) how much sugar is left in the wine, or near enough for our purposes, a wine reading 0.990 oh the hydrometer is dry, containing no or miniscule amounts of sugar.

                  the lower the OG the less alcohol the wine contains at 1.000

                  a wine started at 1.090 and one started at 1.020 contain the same amount of residual sugar when they both read 1.000 (or near enough)

                  a wine at 1.000 contains quite a bit of sugar not yet fermented and this amount of residual sugar is the same no matter what the OG was at the start.

                  as a rough guide (all sorts of thigs affect this) 8 ounces of sugar in a gallon will move the hyrometer reading up by 0.009
                  I pretty much disagree with all of this because alcohol lowers the SG. A completely dry strong wine of 14% will have a substantially lower SG than a completely dry beer of 3% because the higher alcohol level reduces the density of the solution. The reason wines can ferment down to below 1.000 (the SG of water) is the presence of alcohol in the solution.

                  So a beer at 1.006 and a wine at 1.006 contain completely different levels of sugar.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                    I'm afraid you are incorrect in this assumption

                    the Specific gravity tells you (fairly closely) how much sugar is left in the wine, or near enough for our purposes, a wine reading 0.990 oh the hydrometer is dry, containing no or miniscule amounts of sugar.

                    the lower the OG the less alcohol the wine contains at 1.000

                    a wine started at 1.090 and one started at 1.020 contain the same amount of residual sugar when they both read 1.000 (or near enough)

                    a wine at 1.000 contains quite a bit of sugar not yet fermented and this amount of residual sugar is the same no matter what the OG was at the start.

                    as a rough guide (all sorts of thigs affect this) 8 ounces of sugar in a gallon will move the hyrometer reading up by 0.009
                    I pretty much disagree with all of this because alcohol lowers the SG. A completely dry strong wine of 14% will have a substantially lower SG than a completely dry beer of 3% because the higher alcohol level reduces the density of the solution. The reason wines can ferment down to below 1.000 (the SG of water) is the presence of alcohol in the solution.

                    So a beer at 1.006 and a wine at 1.006 contain completely different levels of sugar.

                    edit: for clarity, I'm using SG to mean specific gravity not starting gravity here.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by blackcurrant View Post
                      I agree that wine and beer are totally different animals, but where does elderflower champagne fit it? Tradiational elderflower champagne is meant to be a "mildly alcoholic" fizzy drink made from water, elderflowers, lemon juice and sugar, not an 11% wine.
                      for the purposes of carbonation, it is treat as a wine, for it contains no (or very little) non fermentable sugars



                      That's very interesting. I can't see how the gravity can stay above 1.000 in a beer after fermentation has finished unless there are unfermentable sugars.
                      there are indeed non fermentable sugars, and the physics of the ferment is different, beer yeasts can only attenuate a percentage of the sugars present, and so can be regarded as finished at higher gravities, in fact you cant force them below this, unless like in the case of barley wine (a beer) you use wine yeast for the primary ferment


                      Otherwise beer must follow the same laws of physics as wine, with its density determined by alcohol %.There are no unfermentable sugars in elderflower champers so I guess it will go under 1.000, even though it's only 6% alcohol?
                      no the sugar determines the density (alcohol affects it a little) you must understand this fundamental or your winemaking will suffer, I'm not sure where you have got the idea that %alc determines gravity, but it simply does not, it does affect it slightly, but it is sugar density we are measuring with our hydrometers.

                      I'm sure these questions are answering others questions along the same line, so its all good
                      Last edited by lockwood1956; 06-07-2010, 10:56 AM.
                      N.G.W.B.J.
                      Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                      Wine, mead and beer maker

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                        no the sugar determines the density (alcohol affects it a little) you must understand this fundamental or your winemaking will suffer, I'm not sure where you have got the idea that %alc determines gravity, but it simply does not
                        Sugar raises the density of the solution and alcohol lowers it. A given mass of sugar will raise the density much more strongly than the same mass of alcohol will lower it, but they both have an effect. A hydrometer reading is not a measure of sugar concentration but a measure of density, which is determined by both sugar and alcohol.

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                        • #42
                          A given mass of sugar will raise the density much more strongly than the same mass of alcohol will lower it, but they both have an effect.
                          the dominant factor here is the sugar, and as winemakers this is what we are measuring, the alcohol affects the reading (as i already stated) but it is much less than the sugar will, and my earlier posts are correct in regard to sugar....

                          I am not really sure if this is an attempt to wind me up when all i am trying to do is offer advice, as you dont seem to be following the right principles in your winemaking, and there is potential for danger for others reading the posts.

                          inn winemaking terms we are measuring the sugar (density if you will) and monitoring the drop in the reading to determine when all of the sugar has been used up.

                          but you seem to want to disagree for the sake of it.

                          two wines at 1.000 contain the same level of sugar (near as damn it) no matter what their start Gravity was, the alc will affect it a tad, but not enough for us to worry about it



                          you seem to not understand the relation when it comes to winemaking

                          the density lowers not because of the alcohol, but mostly because the ferment ate up the sugar, producing as it goes approx 50% alc and 50% CO2 by weight, and its the lack of sugar (mostly) that lowers the density
                          Last edited by lockwood1956; 06-07-2010, 11:14 AM.
                          N.G.W.B.J.
                          Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                          Wine, mead and beer maker

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                            but you seem to want to disagree for the sake of it.
                            Sorry about that. The advice is hugely appreciated.

                            I think the problem is that most of my experience is in making beer and I'm treating the weak elderflower champagne as a beer.

                            Also my second gallon isn't sparkling!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by blackcurrant View Post
                              Also my second gallon isn't sparkling!

                              yes beer and sparkling wine, especially in the finishing stages are quite different.



                              so

                              this second gallon,

                              current SG, amount of sugar in there at the start, yeast used, is it in bottle now, prime rates?


                              lets see if we cant sort it out
                              Last edited by lockwood1956; 06-07-2010, 11:20 AM.
                              N.G.W.B.J.
                              Member of 5 Towns Wine and Beer Makers Society (Yorkshire's newest)
                              Wine, mead and beer maker

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lockwood1956 View Post
                                yes beer and sparkling wine, especially in the finishing stages are quite different.



                                so

                                this second gallon,

                                current SG, amount of sugar in there at the start, yeast used?


                                lets see if we cant sort it out
                                SB7 champagne yeast here:
                                The Home Brew Shop UK a specialist Online homebrew supplier of home beer brewing kits wine cider kits and all the homebrewing grains and hops you need


                                The recipe calls for 700 g sugar, but since I added 1 litre of apple juice to the brew I reduced this to get an OG of 1050. (From memory, I think I used 530 g of sugar.) Plus 10-15 red grapes in the muslin bag with elderflowers, just for a pale blush colour.

                                I bottled when my hydrometer (cheap short one) said ready to bottle beer - I think about 1.006, with about half a teaspoon of sugar per bottle as fermentation had slowed right down. I let the brew ferment more than two weeks before bottling, not the 4 days in the HFW instructions. Bear in mind the low sugar means it's over quite quickly.

                                The weather got a little cooler after I bottled, down to about 15 deg C, but surely not cold enough to shock the yeast. Since I bottled, the "wine" has cleared completely, which suggests to me the yeast has stopped.

                                So there are a few possibilities:

                                * inaccurate hydrometer. Perhaps the FG was lower and I didn't add enough priming sugar. But I did test the hydrometer in pure water and it was OK.
                                * stuck ferment - might yet wake up?
                                * 1.006 didn't contain enough residual sugar. I'm trying to find a table on the internet showing residual sugars at 1.006 for different OGs, but no luck so far.

                                My first gallon had the opposite problem - much too explosive.
                                Last edited by blackcurrant; 06-07-2010, 11:41 AM.

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