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  • stir plate meads......

    I'm mulling over making a "stir plate traditional".

    It's no different from a normal trad really, other than its made using a stir plate and bar.

    The recipe is a straight honey, water, nutrient and yeast, but the must is stirred by the bar and plate. There's a bit of a question about whether the stir plate is run fast enough to form a vortex in the liquid, or just enough to rotate it.

    As some of you will know, the current recommended method for meads is to mix the must, then rehydrate they yeast, preferably with GoFerm, then pitch the yeast and give it a good stir. The first half of the nutrient is added one the lag phase is over, then normally it would be stirred/aerated at least once daily, until it hits the 1/3rd sugar break then it would get a final aeration and the second half of the nutrient is added, and its airlocked off to finish.

    Now the theory seems to be that a stir plate/bar will not only help with continued aeration, but it would also agitate the CO2 out of solution, which should assist in reducing possible pH swings a bit as well as keeping the yeast in solution and anecdotally speeding.up the ferment......

    It won't be straight away, as I have to build a stir plate and I'm gonna get a 5litre erlenmeyer flask for the job (probably)
    Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

    Some blog ramblings

  • #2
    FB, why wouldnt a 3 gallon carboy work, you may have to support the weight of the carboy over your stirrer, they have some bigger stir bars available, they also have stirrers that sit on top and stir but those look pretty expensive. Are you having some problem with your mead that this would help? I would think this would be a great way to grow yeast but not a great way to ferment as they might keep growing instead of fermenting? We have been playing with Fermocel, it is supposed to have microfilaments of cellulose (I think that is correct) that help distribute the yeast throughout the must, I have used it in meads as the second addition of nutrients and it seems to work well, we have had no problems with sticking fermentations and the meads have turned out very well even when we use all juice plus honey.

    CC
    WVMountaineer Jacks Elderberry and Meads USA

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    • #3
      I have a couple of thoughts on this..

      1. Does it need to be stirred? Or could it be agitated i.e.back and forth.
      2. The vortex in the centre of the stirred liquid is created by low-pressure, so the answer as to whether you need one is what does the low-pressure bring to the party - is that where it is perceived this CO2 will be released?
      Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Crackedcork View Post
        FB, why wouldnt a 3 gallon carboy work, you may have to support the weight of the carboy over your stirrer, they have some bigger stir bars available, they also have stirrers that sit on top and stir but those look pretty expensive. Are you having some problem with your mead that this would help? I would think this would be a great way to grow yeast but not a great way to ferment as they might keep growing instead of fermenting? We have been playing with Fermocel, it is supposed to have microfilaments of cellulose (I think that is correct) that help distribute the yeast throughout the must, I have used it in meads as the second addition of nutrients and it seems to work well, we have had no problems with sticking fermentations and the meads have turned out very well even when we use all juice plus honey.

        CC
        I already have a 13 litre water cooler bottle that would do the job, but using an erlenmeyer flask appeals to the subconscious mad scientist ..... plus given that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that the yeasts do both, multiply and produce alcohol, it's got me wondering. Fermocel is a nutrient product that I haven't seen over here, yet it's entirely possible that the rotary motion does the same thing (but to do that on an industrial scale would be prohibitively expensive - I'm guessing).

        If/when I try this, it'd only be with a traditional anyway. I certainly wouldn't try it with a batch that uses juice, especially red juice. After all, I understand that it's air/O2 exposure that affects the pigmentation over time, changing it from red/purple to brown. And while I like a bit of ageing on my meads, if it had "red" juice I wouldn't want it brown...... Probably wrong though and just putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.....
        Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
        I have a couple of thoughts on this..

        1. Does it need to be stirred? Or could it be agitated i.e.back and forth.
        2. The vortex in the centre of the stirred liquid is created by low-pressure, so the answer as to whether you need one is what does the low-pressure bring to the party - is that where it is perceived this CO2 will be released?
        I'm thinking along the lines that during the early part of the ferment of a mead, that once it's had it's first batch of nutrient, it'd normally be aerated at least once a day, possibly up to 3 times a day, with the normal recommendation down to the 1/3rd sugar break, yet there's also a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from people who aerate for longer (with no detrimental effect to the beverage), some to the half break and others down to 1.020 - some just stir, other's just splash it around - the most anal in the mead world will actually pump pure O2 through a stainless steel air stone.

        As you know, the CO2 certainly isn't percieved, yet without movement of liquid, it will remain in solution until we do something to help remove it. Now meads suffer from pH swings and we often don't realise just how acidic honey is, because of the incredible masking of the sugars, so it's got me thinking that it could be beneficial by removing the CO2 while the movement maybe help draw in some O2 for the yeast more efficiently - remembering, that with meads, especially in the earlier stages, people frequently either just cover it with a loose lid, or even just a muslin type cloth to keep out any flying nasties - relying on the excess of CO2 to provide the protective blanket.

        I'm still wondering about whether any narrow opening vessel would be correct, as the CO2 is heavier than air (I believe that's correct) so whether it's a case of the CO2 flooding out and the low pressure created by the stirring helps drag in a continuous, almost measured amount of air, I don't know.

        Don't forget, there's some things we do with meads that you wouldn't do with wines, and definitely not with beers - due to the nature of the musts and the kind of help they need to ferment.

        Hell, it could even be that doing this with a conical flask and stir plate is just eye candy/showing off in a "look at me, I'm a mad scientist" sort of way (don't think it's a vanity thing in this case, just that I want to explore all possiblities for laziness/easy life ).

        It does seem that the amount of info available comes from a number of people who've tried this, while most will just remain using the tried/tested method/technique, and is in turn related to the relative cost of a stir plate - yet I've found some instructions/guidance for making one cheaply, with a computer cooling fan - at the moment, the only thing I don't know about for it is speed control, because there's been a couple of examples of stir plate traditionals, some where the stir plate is run relatively slowly, and others where it's run fast enough to draw a visible vortex in the liquid.

        Ha ! I still haven't worked out why it's a good experiment to do, other than I'm still trying to work out a recipe/method/technique to produce consistent, enjoyable meads but using relatively cheap ingredients........ commercial fantasies ? dont' know...
        Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

        Some blog ramblings

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        • #5
          Righto here goes.

          C02 is definitely heavier than air. It does indeed provide a covering blanket to protect the must. I use exactly the same method for making red wine (from grape).
          If you want to get air ( or 02) into the must, I would suggest that the air stone is a better method - perhaps on a simple mains time and set forth three times a day!
          You are correct in thinking that any narrow neck vessel will retain the CO2 above the must thus inhibiting air getting in.

          "As you know, the CO2 certainly isn't percieved, yet without movement of liquid" I have made red wine from grape for many years. I have never ever had to sspecifically remove CO2 or degas in any way. Based on that I cannot agree. I have many Italian friends who find the concept of degassing completely alien.
          That said I do pump my red wines and I suspect this has something to do with my CO2 being precipitated.

          Soooooo Just to set your head on fire....
          How about an air stone on a timer three times a day - to get the air in and on different hours a stir plate to remove the carbon dioxide!


          7 AM air stone #1
          10 AM stirring
          2 PM air stone #2
          6 PM stirring
          10 PM air stone #3
          2 AM stirring

          Each task runs for 1 hour
          Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

          Comment


          • #6
            FB, what do you guys do to mead that winemakers dont do? I am a bit curious because mostly the meads we make people would more likely call fruit wine with all the extra sugar and backsweetening coming from honey, and we pop in a lot of fruit. Last night I treated 50 pounds of strawberries to pectinases, today they will be strained, the SG measured and I have some very nice thistle honey that is a very light honey to add all the extra sugar to it. When its done we will backweeten with more thistle honey. It should end up tasting very much like a strawberry wine with a good honey taste just behind it. I think most mead people put the honey way out in first, ours is more like they are together. CC
            WVMountaineer Jacks Elderberry and Meads USA

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Crackedcork View Post
              FB, what do you guys do to mead that winemakers dont do? I am a bit curious because mostly the meads we make people would more likely call fruit wine with all the extra sugar and backsweetening coming from honey, and we pop in a lot of fruit. Last night I treated 50 pounds of strawberries to pectinases, today they will be strained, the SG measured and I have some very nice thistle honey that is a very light honey to add all the extra sugar to it. When its done we will backweeten with more thistle honey. It should end up tasting very much like a strawberry wine with a good honey taste just behind it. I think most mead people put the honey way out in first, ours is more like they are together. CC
              Which is partly my point. You're an experienced maker who knows the differences, yet some of the forums it seems to predominate with beer makers who take a hell of a lot of convincing to do stuff "the mead way". As with anything, it's all about the balance of what you're aiming for. When it comes to using fruit, I like my "country" wines to taste of the fruit, but not in a wine sort of way i.e. if it's black currant, then I don't want it too taste too much like a black currant cordial that's had some vodka mixed in, yet I don't want it so it's too "wine like".

              The differences I was alluding to was the early stage aeration, staggered nutrient and stuff like that. Wine people do some similar stuff, but they're usually dealing with 100% juice, so they use the conventional methods. Beer people can be a bit OCD with their methods, understandably so, because you will still end up with a brew that can "go off" as it still contains materials that will do, given the chance, plus the levels of alcohol aren't high enough to offer much protection. Meads ? Well I suppose the analogy would be making a wine from concentrate, with the must still retaining some of the original properties of the concentrate, but with nowhere near as much of the built in nutrient abilities that fruit musts have.

              It's all part of why I feel that an experiment like this is worth while. If it has the potential of making meads more easily, then that's fine by me. Especially if it's a straight traditional type mead......

              I'd presume, that you're making your batches with more fruit and then adding the honey for sugars/back sweetening ? Would that mean that they'd be more described as country/fruit wines that happen to have been sweetened with honey ? As opposed to being more of what might be considered a melomel/cyser/pyment etc etc ?
              Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

              Some blog ramblings

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
                Righto here goes.

                C02 is definitely heavier than air. It does indeed provide a covering blanket to protect the must. I use exactly the same method for making red wine (from grape).
                If you want to get air ( or 02) into the must, I would suggest that the air stone is a better method - perhaps on a simple mains time and set forth three times a day!
                You are correct in thinking that any narrow neck vessel will retain the CO2 above the must thus inhibiting air getting in.
                Ok so my understanding was correct.
                Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
                "As you know, the CO2 certainly isn't percieved, yet without movement of liquid" I have made red wine from grape for many years. I have never ever had to sspecifically remove CO2 or degas in any way. Based on that I cannot agree. I have many Italian friends who find the concept of degassing completely alien.
                That said I do pump my red wines and I suspect this has something to do with my CO2 being precipitated.
                The issue is some what different though Brian. With honey musts, they're often considerably more acid than you'd expect. To me, it's part of what people see as "difficulties" with meads, or at least getting their head round meads. They're made from mainly honey, so they should taste sweet, just like honey - and that's rather how it seems the commercial makers want us to think. Of the 4 commercial ones I tried a couple of years ago, my rather unscientific testing showed them all to be in the 1.040 region as sold. Whereas, I like mine to be no more than 1.020.

                Now the pH of an unfermented must, will often measure in the region of 3.5pH, so when it's starting the ferment process, any build up of CO2 in solution as carbonic acid means that it doesn't need much to be cause a stuck ferment, and that's without taking into account the formation and degrading of other acids during the ferment (e.g. gluconic acid etc). Which is in part, what my thinking is about with a stir plate batch. To try and reduce the possibility of pH swings during the ferment (which can be quite wild - the pH swings, not the ferment and it also would appear that the yeast doesn't give a toss about which acid might be dropping the pH, just that when it drops below 3.0, you're in with a chance of a stuck ferment). I do suspect you might have hit the nail on the head in regard of the best way to incorporate some extra O2 though. I'm gonna have a look for a stainles steel air stone and have already got an aquarium pump. Getting a source of pure O2 is rather too anal for my liking (well at least at this stage).

                Sure, I fully follow your comment about grape musts/wines not always being degassed. In many cases, it's a historical fact that part of the flavour is derived from the presence of CO2, and degassing it would actually create a different product - certainly something that tastes very different. But it also seems to be less of an issue with grape musts/wines, when comparing them with mead making, well at least the techniques. I don't believe it's fair to compare a "normal" grape wine with a mead. they're two different beasts......
                Originally posted by Cellar_Rat View Post
                Soooooo Just to set your head on fire....
                How about an air stone on a timer three times a day - to get the air in and on different hours a stir plate to remove the carbon dioxide!


                7 AM air stone #1
                10 AM stirring
                2 PM air stone #2
                6 PM stirring
                10 PM air stone #3
                2 AM stirring

                Each task runs for 1 hour
                I'm thinking along the lines that if I can make the whole process smoother, then it should give the yeasties a better chance to do their thing. Whether it would be better to just run a stir plate continuously, with extra air/O2 twice a day or some other, managable technique, I've yet too think about it that far along (there's a couple of threads at gotmead I'm watching at the moment, too see how they get on).

                It's all a bit experimental, as at the moment, my batches are made in a pretty conventional way, albeit using the methods currently recommended/suggested at Gotmead. Generally using the "no heat" method (not even to get the honey out the container if I can get away with it), aeration/SNA down to the 1/3rd sugar break, etc - oh and I try to use RO water, as it does seem that calcium and/or magnesium salts in the water don't help much - creating some harshness in the finished brew.....

                Hey ho! more reading to be done......
                Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

                Some blog ramblings

                Comment


                • #9
                  The beer guys cook their honey, I wouldnt ever consider loosing all the stuff that comes with the honey that I paid for by cooking it all out. Our mead this week is about 4.25 gallons of 100% strawberry juice and a gallon of thistle honey, toss in some Fermaid and Fermocel to help balance the nutrients, a little optired to help keep the color, some pectinase to help it break down the fruit, some bentonite for the yeast to float around on and pull some of the proteins from the honey. All the extra sugar for fementation comes from the honey and when its done we will backsweeten it with more honey so that the honey taste comes out also. The traditional melomel people seem to add so little fruit that its just a hint behind the honey taste, I prefer to crank them both up, lots of fruit taste and you cant miss the good quality honey taste.

                  The strawberry fruit after macerating overnight with pectinase and being strained was 1.04 and pretty tart, the honey will buffer that tartness and we used EC1118 to push easily through all the honey.

                  We made a black raspberry mead this year with locust tree honey, it might have been the best wine we have ever made, me and the wife, (she hand picks the berries) are having a real hard time not opening a bottle every time its a pretty weekend, or a bad weekend, or even just a normal weekend.

                  Cracked
                  Last edited by WVMountaineerJack; 18-03-2012, 10:28 PM.
                  WVMountaineer Jacks Elderberry and Meads USA

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fatbloke View Post
                    ...better to just run a stir plate continuously.....
                    I think only testing will tell, my thought was from 3 AM to 7 AM they get a rest from anything?? don't know!
                    Is there a chemist in the house? Do yeasts prefer to be stationary or moving to perform at their best?


                    Originally posted by fatbloke View Post
                    ... build up of CO2 in solution as carbonic acid.....
                    Agreed.
                    Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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                    • #11
                      FB, there is a scientific place that sells bigger stir bars then the ones you might have seen in school, how big a batch were you going for? I think most people use a shaker for growing yeast cultures, not a stir bar, maybe you can tape a carboy to your washer and dryer and put some shoes in it and let it go all night CC

                      FB55619 - Magnetic stir bar octahedral with pivot ring PTFE white 159mm x 24mm Fisherbrand
                      FB55621 - Magnetic stir bar Saturn, 50mm Fisherbrand
                      WVMountaineer Jacks Elderberry and Meads USA

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Crackedcork View Post
                        ..maybe you can tape a carboy to your washer and dryer..
                        LOL. Tumble drier on low!!
                        Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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