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  • Oaking ?

    At GF13, both Mr Morton and Mr Sharp, were seen by self, sneaking around with bleedin' great bags of oak dust and chips.

    Investigation (ok, nosiness) showed this to be intended for use during the making of whatever.......

    The builders are due to be finished next week, so once we've got the house back to normal, I'll be asking the "Frozen Grape King" about getting my stuff sent.

    In light of this and wanting to make any preps necessary to proceed (relegated to the shed, so 3 more brew belts for the ferment etc), I was thinking of getting a barrel planter and reducing a couple of staves to shavings (only the clean wood once any charring and/or dirt etc had been planed away).

    So how much per gallon (weight-wise) ? And would it be X grammes per gallon of grape pulp, or would it be X grammes per gallon of pressed juice/wine ?

    Only because if I was trying to mimmick barrel fermentation, it'd be the former, but if just trying to copy barrel aging (for oak flavour at least) it'd be the later.......

    But I don't know........

    Any idea's or guidance ?
    Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

    Some blog ramblings

  • #2
    I would be cautious of where you get the barrel planter from as they may have been treated with nasties you don't want in your wine! I did come across this company a while ago who sell used french oak barrels looks like they still have the silicone bung in them too! http://www.celtictimber.co.uk/produc...rel-55-gallon/
    as for the oaking I think your frozen grape supplier would be the best chap for advise, I seem to remember from previous threads he uses thin toasted staves during maturing. I have tried muslin bags of chips (25g medium oak) in a kit wine during maturing with acceptable results but it could have taken a bit more.
    Abervin - mouth of the river wine!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Abervin View Post
      I would be cautious of where you get the barrel planter from as they may have been treated with nasties you don't want in your wine! I did come across this company a while ago who sell used french oak barrels looks like they still have the silicone bung in them too! http://www.celtictimber.co.uk/produc...rel-55-gallon/
      as for the oaking I think your frozen grape supplier would be the best chap for advise, I seem to remember from previous threads he uses thin toasted staves during maturing. I have tried muslin bags of chips (25g medium oak) in a kit wine during maturing with acceptable results but it could have taken a bit more.
      Yes, it was off the back of Brians idea that I made the thin sticks for adding to last year's fresh grape pyment.

      Most of the local garden centres use barrels that have been reconned with the hoops tightening and any cracked/damaged staves being replaced before they halve them. As for being sprayed with any preservative, no theyre not - we deliver them and some still stink of the spirits they had in them.

      Plus there's a timber yard over toward Tunbridge Wells that gets whole barrels from France by the container load, they were fresh from the vineyard when I checked last and had only contained the wine once (some of the ones they had still had wine dregs in). Thhey were in an "almost new" state with virtually no dirt or rusting of the hoops. The only thing that stopped me buying one to use as an oak fermenter was the size.....225 litres.....

      Hence I'm not concerned about that.

      Just a case of knowing how much to use per litre of either wine or grape pulp.....
      Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

      Some blog ramblings

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      • #4
        Originally posted by fatbloke View Post
        Most of the local garden centres use barrels that have been reconned with the hoops tightening and any cracked/damaged staves being replaced before they halve them. As for being sprayed with any preservative, no theyre not - we deliver them and some still stink of the spirits they had in them.


        Hence I'm not concerned about that.
        Just wanted to highlight that you need to know where the barrels have come from, incase someone reading this thread thinks you can get any old barrel from a garden centre/diy store and use it, never know who's reading these forums
        Abervin - mouth of the river wine!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by fatbloke View Post
          Just a case of knowing how much to use per litre of either wine or grape pulp.....
          Quoted from the big book of wine science, not sure if it helps as I haven't got a scooby what they mean by g/litre/year? year of what? but it does give reasons for adding chips during fermentation and apparently your wood chips can be toasted using an infrared heater.....

          Alternative Sources of Oak Flavor
          The addition of oak chips or shavings to wine has been
          investigated as an economical alternative to barrel aging.
          Not only does it save by delaying or avoiding the purchase
          of new barrels, but it can also reduce costs associated
          with topping and lost wine volume. Values commonly
          suggested are about 10 g/liter/year for white wines, with
          more than twice that for red wines. With small oak chips
          (1 mm diameter), about 90% of the extractives are
          removed within 1 week (Singleton and Draper, 1961). The
          perception of some aromatic constituents may take longer
          to appear, partially because they are formed slowly during
          wine maturation.

          When used, chips are usually added during fermentation. This promotes the early precipitation of the extra
          tannins and phenols, extracted due to the extensive
          wine/chip contact. In addition, oxygen present in the
          wood structure is rapidly consumed during fermentation. If the chips are added after fermentation, oxygen
          uptake can be minimized if the oak is presoaked for a
          few hours.
          Although chips can be added directly to wine, it creates a removal problem. Chips can also clog drains,
          pumps and fi lters. This is partially avoided by enclosing the chips in polyester bags. Although facilitating
          removal, it slows fl avor extraction.

          Jackson, Ronald (2008-03-20). Wine Science (Food Science and Technology) (Page 471). Academic Press. Kindle Edition.



          edit: from another book in my library it suggests 2-4g /litre(red wine) for 1 to 2 weeks added during secondary fermentation, guess it depends how oakey you like it.
          Last edited by Abervin; 03-11-2013, 02:27 PM.
          Abervin - mouth of the river wine!

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          • #6
            Oooh, bloody marvellous Once the pulp arrives etc, I can use the lower amount for starters, as I'm not "nails" like Sharpie is when it comes to his oak ("Gooo on! stick alf a bleedin' tree in it").......

            But I'll likely err on the side of safety and make it something like 2 grammes per litre of pulp......
            Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

            Some blog ramblings

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            • #7
              I've been somewhat hesitant to reply to this thread, because oak in wine is a subjective topic. Some folks like it. Some folks don't. So it's a little hard to say how much one should use.

              I use two products myself. During on-the-skins fermentation, I use a toasted oak powder, at the rate of 2 oz (~60 gms) for every 100 lbs of must. This doesn't add much in the way of oak flavor, nor is it intended to. It serves a few other purposes, though. First, it helps bolster the tannins. Second, it helps lock in color. And third, but probably most importantly, it absorbs chemical compounds like IBMP (2-Isobutyl-3-methoxypyrazine) that can impart vegetal or "green" flavors. If you have grapes that are a bit under ripe, adding a little oak can make a world of difference.

              During post-fermentation aging, cubes or chips are typically used. The rule of thumb, if there is one, seems to be 1 to 3 g/L for lighter wines (Pinot Noir, Sangiovese, Grenache) and 2 to 4 g/L for Syrah and most Bordeaux varieties.

              Keep in mind, it's easy to add oak. But there is no remedy to remove it, short of blending, once it's in there. So err on the side of using too little. You can always add more later if you like.
              Steve

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              • #8
                "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NorthernWiner again." - Oh really? How silly!
                [message when I clicked your star button]


                Thank you Steve, another useful dose of sense & experience. Sadly the computer won't tolerate credit being given twice in what, maybe a year or more? Secretly I harbour a suspicion that the guy that wrote the program was starved of praise from his parents throughout childhood. I wonder why?
                Now bottling 20DJs of 2013 red and making room to rack 5 carboys of 2014 red to the DJs where they can wait for another winter.
                Thank goodness for eBay! (local cache of DJs)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ToulouseLePlot View Post
                  "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NorthernWiner again." - Oh really? How silly!
                  [message when I clicked your star button]


                  Thank you Steve, another useful dose of sense & experience. Sadly the computer won't tolerate credit being given twice in what, maybe a year or more? Secretly I harbour a suspicion that the guy that wrote the program was starved of praise from his parents throughout childhood. I wonder why?
                  very good (as is Steves suggestion)......
                  Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

                  Some blog ramblings

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                  • #10
                    I use oak staves in two ways.

                    In fermentation - this is a much more stable way of adding oak(*) I use 2 kg (freshly fired - well still smoking actually) in 250 L. I have noticed the oakiness seems to vary per grape variety - but I cannot get my head round this. Steve ??

                    These are taken out for pressing, lightly rinsed in filtered water & drained. After pressing they are returned to the wine.

                    At first racking I remove them completely (probably 4/6 weeks in).

                    I have used this for the past couple of years (since the oven fire) and it adds a pleasant very light oak.


                    In finshed wine
                    I also have a tub full of oak staves (same ones which get refreshed every year). I then put batches of wine through this to adjust to taste leaving it anywhere between 1 & three months prior to bottling. Later in the year they tend to get longer because the states are losing their potency.

                    *However I have noticed this method leaves a stain in the bottle which I have researched - the stain is an unstable anthocyanin released by the oak.

                    Hope that helps.
                    Gluten free, caffeine free, dairy free, fat free – you gotta love this red wine diet!

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                    • #11
                      Well, my aim is to get a lower base level of oak into the brew(s) once I start them, hence asking initially about using dust/shavings. When I first looked into this it seemed a good way of getting oak in reasonably quickly (it still is), but I won't have the time to make oak dust/powder, so I'll just make shavings from barrel staves, that way they should give one of the 3 "known" oak profiles i.e. the kind of oaking from either French, American or Hungarian oak barrels (I'm not knowledgable enough to want to find oak from a specific location, to give a mega specific profile - this is about using what's easily available to try and learn about it).

                      Hence I'll just make the shavings, not toast them at all, and I'll see how much a given weight actually is, in physical size. They'll just be added to the initial ferment of the pulp, then they'll come out with the racking/pressing - well that's the intention anyway i.e. to get a lower level of base oak flavour. I can always make some toasted staves later on to increase the oak flavour if it needs it........well that's the current presumption anyway.....
                      Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

                      Some blog ramblings

                      Comment

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