steam for bottle sanitizing

[mcblades]

Hi:

Do any of you use steam as a santiser for your beer bottles?

I have been experimenting with a cheap lidl hand steamer and a more pricey Polti machine. I have bottled and drunk 3, 5 gallon batches so far this year using this method and have had no infections to date (touch wood).


This is my method:

1. As soon as beer is drunk wash out bottle thoroughly with fairy (other brands available ) and stick it on the bottle tree. This is esential as dried on sediment is nigh on impossible to remove from the bottom of the bottle. If in doubt bin the bottle. Getting the inside dry as quickly as possible is also necessary to stop any mould spores germinating. Bottle trees are IMHO one of the best bits of kit any homebrewer can get.

2. At bottling time. heat up your steamer (has to be capable of delivering a high pressure steam (eg 3 bar at 120C or better). Line up your bottles and have an oven glove to hand. I steam for 10-15 secs per bottle with the Polti and 5-6 squirts of the hand pump with the hand steamer. On a clear glass bottle you will see the steam condense then evaporate from the inside as the bottle heats up. he outside of the bottle climbs to about 85C over the next 30 seconds while the inside should be effectively santised.

3. Repeat for the next 4 or 5 bottles then transfer to the bottling tree to drain (using an oven glove).

4. By the time you've finished steaming the bottles the first ones are cool enough to start bottling using your preferred method.

I find this quicker and less messy than filling a bucket with santiser and I think will leave no residue behind to generate off flavours or interfere with bottle conditioning.

I wouldn't use this method for wines as:

1. Not sure that the bottles can take the rapid temperature change. I have had 2 beer bottles crack but they were in winter and fresh out of the garage so I think their low initial temperature did for them.

2. I prefer to swirl out all my wine bottles with sulphite and think the residual sulphite left behind helps to add to the preservation of the wine.

As usual, any comments or howls of derision welcome


Cheer

Mark

[goldseal]

Interesting.

I have thought about using a steamer for general sanitisation, but I was concerned about getting enough steam onto every square mm of every surface (it cools rapidly on leaving the nozzle).

I'd be interested to hear how you get on over the coming months.

[mcblades]

I agree that the steam does cool rapidly.... But being in an enclosed space (ie in the bottle) I think helps to keep the temp up.

Also, 'wet' heat is a much better bug killer than dry..

So far so good

cheers

Mark

[lockwood1956]

As usual, any comments or howls of derision welcome

lol

I too will be interested to see how this pans out.


I always thoroughly rinse the bottles immediately upon emptying, and pop onto the bottle tree, they get a blast of sulphite, and a rinse before use. if i have ever been a bit unsure about them, they go in the oven at 100 Deg C for 10 minutes (like i do with jam jars before use)

regards
bob

[Rich]

I thought for wet steam to work it had to be at 123c uner pressure for 10 to 15 mins or so to sterilise?

But, it does sound interesting. In the name of science though, shouldn't you be just bottling some in some clean bottles that haven't been steamed, and see if they go bad?

[Cellar_Rat]

IMO Exposure time will be key here.

May have mentioned this before - my bottle's never dry out.
Drink. Wash immed. Add a splash of alcohol and seal with stopper.

Bottling - remove stopper, tip out alcohol (and recycle). Fill with wine & cork.

[crusher]

I might have been lucky, been brewing on and off for over 40 years, and can't remember ever having an infected brew.
I rinse bottles with tap water as soon as they are empty, put them in rack in brewing room.
When bottling I rinse with tap water, spray inside bottle with 10% sulphite solution and put on bottle tree. When they are all done I rinse with tap water and fill. Crown caps are put in a jug of boiling water. Nice, simple and cheap. Works for me.

[Cellar_Rat]

I might have been lucky, been brewing on and off for over 40 years, and can't remember ever having an infected brew.
I rinse bottles with tap water as soon as they are empty, put them in rack in brewing room.
When bottling I rinse with tap water, spray inside bottle with 10% sulphite solution and put on bottle tree. When they are all done I rinse with tap water and fill. Crown caps are put in a jug of boiling water. Nice, simple and cheap. Works for me.

Yeah spot on. Brewland do a simple cheap little pump reservoir for sulphite solution rinsing - see one working very good ideed for you method.

[mcblades]

I've got 2 of the vinatore bottle seasoners. I used to use them for squirting sulphite into wine bottles before filling. The reason I have 2 is that either the o-rings went or the plastic piston was slightly warped and this dramatically reduced it's effectiveness.

For wine bottles I fill one with about 200ml of sulphite and give it a good shake with my thumb over the end for about 5 secs then decant this into the next bottle and continue until i run out of bottles. A lot cheaper than the 'sulphite fountain' and probably as effective. If anyone wants my old ones to play with PM me and pay for the postage and I'll be well shot of them!


I used to use the sulphite rinse for both beer and wine as mentioned by Bob and crusher. This was fine for wine but I found that bottle conditioning of beer was quite hit and miss and blamed the residual sulphite for this (I drip dried the bottles after sulphiting rather than rinsing them with water before filling). I figured that steam would leave no residue, no taste and nothing to stop the beer getting its fizz. This seems to be the case to date.

the variable conditioning could also have been my impatience and not allowing the beer enough time in the bottle but this is a perennial problem for me with both wine and beer

Wrt sterilising Rich, I agree that 15 min at 121C will effectively kill everything with the exception of prions and if they get in your beer then you'll be barking at the moon and talking to cows and it won't be the fault of ye old skull cracker. However, most vegetative bacteria and yeast are killed by a relatively short exposure to high temperature.

An example of this is pasteurised milk which is NOT sterile but has had effectively all the pathogens and spoilage organisms killed but not spoilage organisms such as lactobacillus by heating to 72C for 15secs. I reckon the inside of the bottles gets to 80C in the time they are exposed. Spore formers (some bacillus and clostridium species) will not be killed but the low pH in the beer should lead to the spores not germinating.

I can't bring myself to deliberately ruin part of a batch of lovingly created all grain beer. But next time I make a wherry I will try your experiment. When I worked as a wee whipersnapper in the lab at Gaymers cider Co. we checked the microbial quality of the cider using a simple method. We bottled cider from the kegging line using aseptic technique then moved it to an incubator at 30C. This would accelerate the spoilage so that we could pull the batch from the pubs if necessary before anyone drank it!

cheers

Mark




regards

Mark

[crusher]

I used to find conditioning a bit hit and miss when I used to prime individual bottles. But since I started priming in bulk before I bottled I've not had any problems.

[mcblades]

Hi Crusher,

By priming in bulk do ou mean adding sugar to the secondary (I use a pressure barrel and bottling cane) just before bottling? If so, that's what I have been doing. I could never see the point of half a teaspoon of sugar in the bottom of 40 odd bottles.

I did wonder if the conditioning problems may be due to a lack of yeast in the bottle (I leave in 2ndary for a week or 2 until pretty clear). Anyway, the last 3 batches have primed fine so I reckon it's the steriliser. I had problems with an elderflower fizz not fizzing last year and think that may have been due to sulphite in the bottle. Will try with steam this year and fingers crossed.

cheers

Mark

[Cellar_Rat]

Mark,

I used to use the sulphite rinse for both beer and wine as mentioned by Bob and crusher. This was fine for wine but I found that bottle conditioning of beer was quite hit and miss and blamed the residual sulphite for this ....

I would too. Don't forget fermentation is a sterilisation process in itself, so for bottle primed beer, are we being over cautious by sulphiting bottles.

I think your process for wine it spot on IMO. And if it were me I would not change it to steam.

This hobby it all about 'balance'. It is bug management, we want some of them and not others. Powerful agents (sulphite included) can upset this balance.

[crusher]

Hi Mark, Yes, spot on.
When I first started brewing priming individual bottles was the norm, and yes, it was a bit hit and miss. That and the quantity I was brewing (not for myself you understand, I had lots of thirsty mates) persuaded me to invest in a number of "Beer Spheres", the forerunner of todays King Kegs. Obviously these were bulk primed and from then on any bottled beer I made was also bulk primed in a secondary fermenter, much more consistent.
Today I also leave in secondary untill almost clear and then prime and bottle or keg.
It does take a little longer to condition but has much less sediment in the bottle.
The thing I love today is the fantastic choice of yeasts that are available. Years ago apart from dried "Beer Yeast" the only others available were from bottle conditioned beer. Guinness was my favourite, now the worlds your oyster.