Wishing to improve a Young's Definitive Bitter

[Tibley Bobley]

It's a kit I bought from Wilkos for a tenner. Seemed a reasonable price. I'm going to brew it for my Brother who is a great enthusiast for British real ales. From what I've read about it though, it's drinkable but nothing special (accounting for the reasonable price I guess). I've read a recommendation to add some Cascade hops (dry hopping?) and looking those up, I see that they're imported from the US and they have an unusual "spicy" flavour. Not sure my bruv will approve of unusual, spicy, American-tasting ale when he's a self-confessed lover of British real ale. I'm clueless when it comes to beer. Could one of you friendly and helpful real-ale experts please advise.

Thank you

[Delmonteman]

Forget the hops and buy 1kg of Dried Malt Extract and use that instead of the sugar recommended in the recipe. Single can kits can suffer badly from a lack of body and increasing the malt will overcome this. Other than that, try give it a good couple of weeks in the bottle/ keg before you crack it open...

Second option would be to use 1kg of beer enhancer which I think I have seen in some wilkinsons if you don't have a LHBS...

[joelw94]

While a low price kit may never taste like a fresh real ale from a good pub, there are certainly some improvements you could make:
Use a kilo of pale/light dry malt extract/spraymalt (500g would be ok for a bitter if cost is a problem) or a can of liquid malt extract instead of sugar/dextrose. This will make a much smoother, fuller flavour without the cidery off flavours that adding a kilo of sugar can give.
The second big improvement is to replace the generic yeast. I'd use nottingham/gervin english ale, a good fermenter with a little english character and no strange flavours so long as temps don't get much over 21c. Rehydrate it in about 100ml water, water should be about 27c before adding yeast.
Yes dry hopping can help, just add 15-30g of hops (depending on how hoppy you want it) to the fermenter once fermentation has died down and leave in for a week before bottling. You can use a hop sock or stocking to stop hop material reaching the bottles but make sure it is sanitised before adding the hops, also leave plenty of space in the hop sock for the hops to expand or you won't extract much flavour. Yes cascade are very american, another great hop for dry hopping is Styrian Goldings which wouldn't be out of place in an English ale. You could also use East Kent Goldings.
Finally another possibility is to steep some pale crystal malt (say 250g) in hot 75c water for half an hour then add the water to the fermenter when you are mixing the kit, this will add some fresh malt flavour and a little malty sweetness. A straining bag makes this process really easy.

All these things can be bought from good homebrew shops, online orders tend to arrive quite quickly too if you don't live near one. Combined these things would make your brew a fair bit more expensive, but better tasting. I would at least do the hops and the yeast, plus if you use all sugar/dextrose then add some yeast nutrient (1tsp per gallon) to help try and reduce the off flavours.
Too late now but an option next time is just to splash out on a better kit, like the Woodforde's Wherry kit which others on this forum love with no changes; it is already all malt extract and the hop balance and yeast are fine. In the end it works out about the same or cheaper than buying all the extra bits and is less hassle although less adventure. Or next time just buy plain extract then use your own hops and grains to make the beer exactly how you want it, although this is getting more complicated and involves boiling in a big pot.

It may be hard to please a real ale lover but whatever you make you can be proud because you made it yourself!

[lockwood1956]

You can also buy "hopped" dried malt extract, this may be a more cost effective solution.

regards
Bob

[Tibley Bobley]

Brilliant! Thank you very much Delmonte, Joel and Bob. It looks like more of an adventure than a problem now. I'll replace the sugar with malt extract... the hopped dried malt extract looks most economical - and get the Gervin ale yeast. As a matter of interest, does anyone have experience of the Brupaks "Flavapak Ale"?

I did a Woodford's Wherry first... and it's going down nicely. Bill (the bruv) really likes it! And even I (not normally a beer drinker) have the odd small glass of it. I picked up the Youngs DB as a sort of impulse buy... surprised to see a little home brew corner in a Wilko shop.

[Delmonteman]

The only downside of hopped malt extract is you will increase the bitterness of the bitter which you may not desire (I wouldn't personally but I'm not a bitter fan). Then again you might want to increase it so hey ho!

[Tibley Bobley]

Hmmm. I don't know, Delmonte. I know Bill likes it hoppy but I'll have to ask him whether he likes it more or less bitter. What if I used an unhopped malt and then did some dry hopping (those East Kent Goldings, I think) at the end. That would add to the hoppy smell/taste without increasing the bitterness, wouldn't it?

[Tibley Bobley]

I've just asked him - and he says he does like his bitter to be more rather than less bitter. So I might go for the hopped malt. If I did that, would it be OTT to dry hop it as well? .... only I've just this past week or so found that I like the Wherry and (naive as I am about beers) I like the nice initial taste, rather than the after taste, which I find a bit bitter.

[Delmonteman]

Dry hopping and hopped ME are two separate things. The hopped ME will add bitterness (you might be able to calculate the additional bitterness if it tells you on the pack of ME?). Dry hopping will add hop aroma (not bitterness). So, you could do both... Classic hops in UK style beers are fuggles and goldings. I don't think you need many when dry hopping but you'll find you can only buy them in 100g packs so you might have a few left over for next time. They keep well in the freezer if wrapped up well...

[joelw94]

I've never used it myself but the Muntons website says the hopped spraymalt is designed as a kit improver to keep the balance of the beer, so the increased bitterness shouldn't be overwhelming. I'd just use one 500g pack and either add a little sugar (like 100-200g) if you want a little extra strength, or add a second pack of unhopped. Dry hopping doesn't really add bitterness but it adds some hop flavour and can add a fairly strong hoppy aroma, which I like. It's impossible to know what variety of hops Muntons has used and if they have a great flavour and aroma. Dry hopping would help with that, you can choose your variety and be sure that it will be a pleasant one (yes East Kent Goldings would be nice). The flavour can take a few weeks in the bottles (or keg/barrel etc) to round out the rough edges.

I've dry hopped a few times and just bottled a very hoppy beer where I dry hopped with quite a lot of hops. When I came to bottle it it had a film on top. A bit of research told me this is just from the hop oils, nothing to worry about, the beer tasted great. So don't worry if you get the same.

[Tibley Bobley]

Thank you very much for the helpful suggestions

I've just ordered 1 Muntons spraymalt (hopped), 1 Muntons spraymalt (medium), 100g pack of East Kent Goldings... ready to go. But I have more questions: somewhere in one of the books I've been reading, one method given was to boil 25g of hops for 20 mins, another 25g of hops for 7 mins and pour the liquor into the fermenter. Would that be better/worse/different from dry hopping? What would happen if you did all 3? Too much?

Also, I noticed that the Brupak "Flavapak Ale" has hops and grains in some kind of teabag arrangement. What sort of grains might they be and could I do something similar? I do have some grains (Marris Otter and flaked barley... I think).

[joelw94]

Yes boiling hops for 20 mins would add too much bitterness if used as well as the hopped malt and the kit. Also I'm not a fan of boiling hops in just water, tends to lend a vegetal character, it is much better to boil them in wort as this extracts the flavours we are used to in beer. 20 minutes hops are for flavour and the 7 minutes (although 1 minute is even better) is for aroma. Dry hopping is an easy and convenient way to add hop character to a beer without adding any bitterness, all grain brewers mainly use it to replace hop compounds lost in the boil. If you are already doing a boil then adding hops to the boil is the way to go, with optional dry hopping. For a quick 'kits and bits' brew like this dry hopping alone is much easier and quicker.

Not a clue what's in the flavapack, I hope someone else can help you! Most likely crystal malt as that's the best type of malt for steeping as opposed to mashing, you're not going to get anything out of Marris Otter without a doing mash and flaked barley should be mashed with base malt too. I'd just go with the stuff you've just ordered this time, should turn out fine.

Happy brewing!

[Tibley Bobley]

Thank you Joel. I'll just employ the malt (hopped and unhopped) and some East Kent Golding dry hops then I'm awaiting delivery of the malt and hops now. 100 Beer bottles arrived this morning. I ordered 500ml size and what turned up were 330ml. Ho hum. Back they go....

I'm just wondering about bottling. I syphoned the last 5 gallons (Wherry) into a keg, which was straight-forward (apart from having to break off to answer the door to someone). But syphoning into bottles? Isn't it a bit fiddly? Could I syphon it into another 5 gallon FV and then jug it into the bottles with the help of a funnel?

[Cellar_Rat]

This is a simple bottler. Works a treat.

party syphon tap.jpg

Your syphon hose connects to party tap (from Ebay or a good HBS). The drop tube just pushed in the spout, and is just co2 pipe so the beer gets to the bottom of the bottle and foams less. The tap does press and hold or locked open.

Works as a syphon, also works if you have a corny - you can pressure bottle.

If you can't get the co2 pipe I will send you some.. PM me your address.

[Delmonteman]

But syphoning into bottles? Isn't it a bit fiddly? Could I syphon it into another 5 gallon FV and then jug it into the bottles with the help of a funnel?

Syphon into another FV, then syphon into the bottles from the second FV, or fit a tap to the second FV and fill the bottles from the tap... I'd be inclined to avoid jugging due the risk of oxidation (though in reality this probably isn't an issue). Bulk prime in the second FV rather than prime bottles individually as I understand it gives more consistent results...