Lack of hoppiness (hop aroma) in AGB

[mcblades]

I have been brewing all grian brews for a year or so (mainly using Graham Wheelers brew your own british ales book for recipes and guidance). With one exception (the cascade recipe on this fine forum) all my brews have turned out with too little hop aroma compared to the beers they are trying to emulate (bittering levels are OK though). I have used various hop containment strategies (rice cooker ball, hop bag etc) and now tend to chuck the hops into the boil without the bag etc, then strain the hot wort through a chinois when running into the fermenter.

The main difference between my brews and the hoppy cascade ales are the relatively huge amount of hops in the cascade vs the various recipes I have done. Most call for 10-15g at most for a 5 gal brew to be added in the last 15 mins compared to 60g in total for the cascade (makes it quite expensive at 5 quid/100g of hops). Could it be that the cascade has 40g of hops thrown in at flameout. Do the flameout hops give up the volatile aromatics without being boiled off?

So, do I try chucking loads more hops in and hope for the best or is there something I should be doing to get the hop aroma that I am not?

[Cellar_Rat]

Bang on.

Flame-out hops give up the volatile aromatics without being boiled off - early hops are for bitterness.

Are your hops in date & from a good source?

I have done exactly the same as you it seems GW page 174 & cascade. OSH was about the right hoppy I thought.

[rjb222]

Ok how to structure a brew for hoping profile becomes the important part of this question. Keep in mind that hops have different qualities depending on how they are processed for the purpose of brewing. Pellet type hops work well for bittering not as well for flavoring not as well for aroma. Pucks work well for bittering and flavoring but not so good for aroma.The best hops are leaf or bud or Florette the naming will change area to area where they are purchased from.These are died and whole not processed and contain the most of the yellow sticky lignum that contains the phenols you need for the aromas. The pricing also comes into play here as pellets are the cheapest pucks are next and whole hops are the most expensive. It also takes more of the less expensive processed to accomplish the same thing. Bittering is any hop added when the boil starts flavoring is any hops that are added in the last fifteen minutes of the boil aroma is added in the last five minutes of the boil until flame out dry hopping is done in the secondary. The timing to the additions is the temperature and time at the temperature to convert the alpha properties into bittering flavoring aroma. Dry hoping is more about grassy note to your beers.

[mcblades]

Thanks both.

After early disasters with pelletised hops (blocked hop strainers etc) I always use dried whole hops for my brews and tend to follow the recipes closely wrt variety and purpose (bittering/aroma). I always thought adding the hops in the last 15min was to get that hoppy perfume to complement the earlier bittering addition. I have made the same recipe as Cellar rat's OSH clone which contains challenger for bittering and goldings for aroma. When I brew it to the book recipe I get quite a malty brew, slightly sweet (it's quite high gravity) with well balanced bitterness but little of the pronounced hop flavour described in the tasting notes (and also when you buy the commercial equivalent). IN this recipe, 12g of challenger are added 15min from falmeout. The flavour I am trying to get is closer to the cascade ale which IMO is close to one of my favourite bitters, Timothy Taylors Landlord or a white shield IPA. This has a more pronounced hop aroma and bitterness, but I wouldn't describe it as a grassy note. I can explain the flavour that I want in terms of UK production beers but I'm not sure how many of our beers get over to canada in one piece.

It's a frustration because the dark ales and porters that I have made have been spot on which is good for winter drinking but for a light summer ale with crisp bitterness and floral bouquet I am not even close. I think I need to work out the difference between hop flavour and hop aroma first as I am not sure how they differ (bittering aside) in the finished beer.

Also, I wonder if the quality of my boil is perhaps an issue. I use a relatively puny 2kw heater (Lidl boiler) which just about achieves a rolling boil with the lid on (another issue).

[Rich]

Insulate the sides of your lidl boiler, with the silver looking bubble wrap (sold at b&q as loft/wall insulation) I have two layers around my boiler, and sometimes a blanket aswell it. Leave the lid on until it is boiling, then remove.

(I boil outside, where it can be cold up here!)

[SiSandrine]

Just a question having recently tried my first all grain brew. Does the boil need to be really strong in the last 15 minutes when you add the aroma hops? My boil when I added them was more of a simmer at that point - I turned it down because of Brian's post about non volcanic boiling. I seem to have a really hoppy aroma and the right level of bitterness (it was the cascade recipe).

[rjb222]

The boil serves two purposes in the making of wert. First it separates the proteins and sugars into separate molecule chains. The second is it finishes the conversion of the starches into the different sugar chains fermentable and non fermentatable. The side bar to this is also the conversion of the Alpha acids in the hops into bittering flavoring and aroma acids. The boil and hot break are the most important parts of this process.The hot break is the protein separation and this creates the mouth feel. It is very important not to boil over the hot break and loose these proteins as they also contribute to the nutrients for your yeast. The best way to control the hot break is stirring temperature and boiler size. Once the hot break occurs the temperature can come up and a full rolling boil is the best boil for after the hot break.Do you need to be pot shaking no but you do need more than a simmer. If the temperatures are not met for the proper duration then the ferment able and the non ferment able sugar separation does not happen and the brew will either be high alcohol or sweet low alcohol so temperature of the boil needs to be correct and timed for the style of beer being made.

[Cellar_Rat]

Just a question having recently tried my first all grain brew. Does the boil need to be really strong in the last 15 minutes when you add the aroma hops? My boil when I added them was more of a simmer at that point - I turned it down because of Brian's post about non volcanic boiling. I seem to have a really hoppy aroma and the right level of bitterness (it was the cascade recipe).

Forgot to mention that - yes indeed.

[SiSandrine]

So for clarity then cos I am a little confused after the last couple of posts (I am a very inexeperienced brewer).

1. Bring to the boil relatively slowly (at some point the Hot Break occurs during this stage - how do I know?).
2. After hot break, boil as hard as possible for the duration of the time (including the last 15 minutes) when aroma hops are added.

So if thats correct then the question is what does a hot break look like?

[rjb222]

So for clarity then cos I am a little confused after the last couple of posts (I am a very inexeperienced brewer).

1. Bring to the boil relatively slowly (at some point the Hot Break occurs during this stage - how do I know?).
2. After hot break, boil as hard as possible for the duration of the time (including the last 15 minutes) when aroma hops are added.

So if thats correct then the question is what does a hot break look like?

1. The hot break will be very obvious. There is a white foam that forms over the entire surface of the wert. This is the most important time of the boil. This foam cap is full of what the yeast needs to do its job properly. During this time work your heat if you can.I use a out side cooker and lift the pot off and on and while the pot is on the cooker I stir vigorously. The hot break happens when this foam parts and actually seems to disappear to the edges of the pot.After this point you do not need to worry about the cap forming again and causing a boil over so then you can relax and only stir once and a while and let the boil happen naturally.2. Once started a rolling boil is the best right to the end.

[SiSandrine]

Great answers. I understand this better now. I'll add this to my notes on the Cacade recipe. Thanks.

[Cellar_Rat]

I often refer to this as the snot break - normally about 15 minutes in. Further and I have found success if you add the hot after this.

Absolutely agree with RJB. Pay attention to this get it through the hot break. This is also the canon of hot sticky filth moment. Once you are past snot break, chuck your hop leaves in loose. Crack the lid halfway and go and have a cup of tea for an hour until you need to put the last few hops in.

sorted.

[koomber]

There are a few tricks people use to get past the hot break, since this is the prime boil over moment. As has been mentioned, stirring helps massively, some people have also claimed using a wooden spoon helps, but not having a wooden spoon I can't possibly comment. The simplest method I've found is to brew less. In my lidl boiler, I usually manage around 4 UK gallons (about 1 corny keg) with absolutely no problems. I can get 5 UK gallons at a push, but it gets a bit twitchy with the volumes.

You can also buy defoamers (food grade) which help to reduce the surface tension and thus prevent foaming. The defoamer is removed during the hot break so it has no further influence on the beer. I've used them to good effect in the past and they require almost nothing for a 5 gallon brew (as in 1 drop will kill the foam).

As has been metnioned with regards to aroma, you get more aroma if you add at flame out. I usually add them at flame out and just leave them to soak whilst I cool.

Another trick is to add them to fermentation vessel (dry hopping). This is best left till after the primary fermentation has completed as the mass amount of CO2 generated can strip out the aromatics, but it produces a bucket of aroma. The only downside to this is that it can get a bit messy when you need to bottle.

[Cellar_Rat]

Another trick is to add them to fermentation vessel (dry hopping). This is best left till after the primary fermentation has completed as the mass amount of CO2 generated can strip out the aromatics, but it produces a bucket of aroma. The only downside to this is that it can get a bit messy when you need to bottle.

I have used dry hopping and made an inline hop filter (fuel filter stuffed with scrubbers) worked a treat.