a Cider question

[fatbloke]

Ok, I've put it here as the only mention of cider is in the recipes bit.

So to the question.

Now I've seen the cider kits, whether they are just called "Cider" or a little more specific and say "West Country Cider", but, I've also seen some other stuff like Breton Cider (and other french types, on wikipedia).

Now it seems that lots of the french cider types are made from a mix of different types of apples (I think it's referred to as a Pommage - after they apples are pressed, or at least milled).

So given that most of the kits available in the UK will be variants of UK cider styles, does anyone know how I might go about making them "more appley"/french in style ?

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and this is mainly because I'm closer to France than most of the "West country"

[fatbloke]

Well I might have answered my own question.

I found a site with some excellent info on cider making.

It would appear that if I up the sugar to increase the alcohol, then mod the acidity with Malic and then some tannin.

dunno if that's right but I'm gonna give it a go

regards

John

[StockeyDAW]

[QUOTE=fatbloke;28735]Well I might have answered my own question.

I found a site with some excellent info on cider making.trying to branch out? always nice to try something new

It would appear that if I up the sugar to increase the alcohol, then mod the acidity with Malic and then some tannin. you know me I like a lower version of alcohol - but that is you decision. The malic is something that I would be very careful with? you now have a pH meter that you can measure the acidity of the wine-cider that you are making , as you know i like tartaric -- make sure the acidity is in the correct range before pitching the yeast

dunno if that's right but I'm gonna give it a go

regards hope it works for ya


Cheers Daw

[lockwood1956]

Hi John
this site may be useful to you

http://www.cider.org.uk/

hope this helps
regards
Bob

[fatbloke]

Hi John
this site may be useful to you

http://www.cider.org.uk/

hope this helps
regards
Bob

It's the main one I've been reading, and explains the difference between cider/eating/culinary apples - with a handy guide.

A very informative site.


[quote=StockeyDAW;28749]

trying to branch out? always nice to try something new

you know me I like a lower version of alcohol - but that is you decision. The malic is something that I would be very careful with? you now have a pH meter that you can measure the acidity of the wine-cider that you are making , as you know i like tartaric -- make sure the acidity is in the correct range before pitching the yeast

hope it works for ya

New ? Yes, but rather than just following the kit recipe(s), I've been hoping to approximate the excellent ciders of Northern France (Breton/Normandy).
Most of the kits aim at about 5% but I've been keen to increase it a bit - the obvious choice being sugar addition and a bit more yeast to ensure that it's using one that will finish it dry.

But the site Bob quoted (which I'd already started working my way through) explains basically the differences between the "normal" apple types, but the site reflects British ciders.

Whereas, I've also been looking at wikipedia and a few other places. There was an interesting one that explained about the mix/variation of apples used i.e. sweet/eating, culinary/sharp, bitter sweet and bitter sharp. Then there's the percentage of each type to achieve a certain flavour, etc etc.

One of the problems being, what's known as "Kentish" style cider (made in Kent, conveniently ) is that they often use just the sweet and sharp type apples, which produces a more "wine like" cider. The west country (focused on Somerset) cider uses mainly "cider" apples - i.e. bitter sweet and bitter sharp apples, both of which aren't generally available for public/open sale, which means that I have to attempt to modify "normal" type apple juice with, as it seems, acid and tannin (info that I'm gleaned from the site Bob quoted).

I though of using malic acid as apples are a malic fruit, so I've made up a batch (a kit) and added additional acid, at a rate of 10 grammes per gallon. This has dropped the starting pH from about 3.7 down to 3.07. I'm hoping that this will approximate a "bitter sharp" apple cider. Some additional sugar is, hopefully making it like bitter sharp apples from a good year, when they have a natural higher sugar content and the right(ish) acid level.

I've been thinking about adding some tannin, but as yet haven't worked out what might be an appropriate addition i.e. grammes per gallon, for the dosage.

MLF shouldn't be a problem as it's not going to last long enough for that to occur

Hence my attempt at making apple juice more "appley". I haven't got the acres of land to grow different apples and I'm far too impatient to wait the 5 to 15 years for the damn things to grow.

We have put 4 different apple tree's in the garden this year as well as 2 different pears, but it's gonna take a few years to get them "trained" (fan style against a wall), and fruiting, but it's a start.

In the meantime I've just got to keep experimenting to see if I can circumvent the lack of the more difficult to obtain juice types.

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

I though of using malic acid as apples are a malic fruit, so I've made up a batch (a kit) and added additional acid, at a rate of 10 grammes per gallon. This has dropped the starting pH from about 3.7 down to 3.07. I'm hoping that this will approximate a "bitter sharp" apple cider. Some additional sugar is, hopefully making it like bitter sharp apples from a good year, when they have a natural higher sugar content and the right(ish) acid level. FB - do you know what the Titratable Acid (total acid level for starting should be? - the pH at 3.07 looks to me to be slightly on the low side - but I am not experienced in making cider? Re: MLF; If you encourage this it may work out to be that much better; the malic acid will be that much less harsh. Is this going to be a sparkling cider? or a wine type cider? You can encourage a MLF to happen sooner if using a MLF culture directly after alcohol fermentation is complete? Only some thoughts
Cheers Daw

[David]

So given that most of the kits available in the UK will be variants of UK cider styles, does anyone know how I might go about making them "more appley"/french in style ?

Several years ago (before I bought a press) I tried some cider kits (CWE white).

I was so dissapointed with the first batch that (having bought about 5 to get free delivery) I tried:

1) Adding carton apple juice in lieu some of the water.

2) Fermenting chopped apples in a primary and straining the juice, together with carton apple onto the cider concentrate.

Neither option gave a result I was satisfied with, so I bought a press & pulpmaster (pressing got up to 120 gall. of apples & pears last year - suprising how many people are grateful if you take their windfalls away and give them some fresh juice/cider/wine).

But as in Kent, the cider made from local (Bucks.) juice is more like apple wine than West Country cider. And the pressed apple juice I brought back from N. Devon a couple of years ago produced 'cidery' apple wine.

[fatbloke]

FB - do you know what the Titratable Acid (total acid level for starting should be? - the pH at 3.07 looks to me to be slightly on the low side - but I am not experienced in making cider? Re: MLF; If you encourage this it may work out to be that much better; the malic acid will be that much less harsh. Is this going to be a sparkling cider? or a wine type cider? You can encourage a MLF to happen sooner if using a MLF culture directly after alcohol fermentation is complete? Only some thoughts
Cheers Daw

No, more of an attempt at making something that's more "cidery" than wine like.

Going on some of the info from the site that Bob quoted (I'd actually already found it) the chart that explains about the differences in the types of apples, seem to be more acid, tannin and in a good year, plus when the apples have been stored for a couple of weeks, more sugar. Whereas eating apples are high sugar, but lower acid and tannin.

It's more about not knowing exactly what apples are used in the kit(s).

As for titrateable acid, no I haven't learned how to test for that yet. Just the basic correlation between pH and TA, but that's only really linked a bit, with mead. I understand that with other wines, etc it's often different, but how I'd test for levels of TA without spending a fortune on an advanced piece of test kit, I don't know.

I'm thinking that as I'd only ever be able to obtain reasonable quantities of sweet/eating and sharp/cooking apples, I'm playing with adjusting the other variables a bit to see if I can make something that tastes "more west country". I'm unsure whether that might be possible.

Several years ago (before I bought a press) I tried some cider kits (CWE white).

I was so dissapointed with the first batch that (having bought about 5 to get free delivery) I tried:

1) Adding carton apple juice in lieu some of the water.

2) Fermenting chopped apples in a primary and straining the juice, together with carton apple onto the cider concentrate.

Neither option gave a result I was satisfied with, so I bought a press & pulpmaster (pressing got up to 120 gall. of apples & pears last year - suprising how many people are grateful if you take their windfalls away and give them some fresh juice/cider/wine).

But as in Kent, the cider made from local (Bucks.) juice is more like apple wine than West Country cider. And the pressed apple juice I brought back from N. Devon a couple of years ago produced 'cidery' apple wine.

Which sounds pretty much what I've read.

I did make a batch of the "high fruit" apple wine recipe in "First Steps", but it had the consistency and look of wine, but the smell of cider.

I've been looking around to see if I can find anyone who sells cider apples - then I could have a go at blending the juice from them with some from some eating/cooking apples and try that.

As far as I can find out, even if I had the land/space it'd take at least 5 years to get new tree's up to any kind of productive standard.

Still, I can keep looking and playing to see if I can do anything in the meantime, just in small batches.

I may have located some apples reasonably cheaply, but they're probably eating apples. I've got to get some more info before I put my money where my mouth is so for the moment, it's a case of experimenting with kit's to see if I can make them "more appley" i.e. so it tastes half drinkable, instead of the disappointment that you mention (and others around the web who've said the same thing).

regards

JtFB

[Simon_]

John

The book "Real Cidermaking" describes a technique called "keeving" used to make French style ciders whereby the pulp is not pressed but left to separate into a brown muck that floats on a clear liquid; the clear liquid is then siphoned off and used for cider making. Happy to copy the relevant chapter and send it to you if it helps

And let us know if you manage to find some cider apples; I've planted a couple of cider apple trees in the hope of getting a crop in the future

Simon

[fatbloke]

John

The book "Real Cidermaking" describes a technique called "keeving" used to make French style ciders whereby the pulp is not pressed but left to separate into a brown muck that floats on a clear liquid; the clear liquid is then siphoned off and used for cider making. Happy to copy the relevant chapter and send it to you if it helps

And let us know if you manage to find some cider apples; I've planted a couple of cider apple trees in the hope of getting a crop in the future

Simon

I also found the bit about keeving - though I interpreted it to be just milling the apples, and then letting them stand until it was reasonably brown - which also develops the darker colour of the juice, but then straining off the juice followed by pressing of the pulp.

I was actually thinking about taking normal apple juice (supermarket/from concentrate/no preservatives) and seeing if I could make it more like cider apple juice. It seems that it's likely to be a case of increasing the acidity some, plus higher tannin levels. Not sure if it would really matter where the tannin originated i.e. grape tannin or similar.

I made a cider kit recently (can't remember which one, but it was called "west country"). The must tasted reasonably sweet, not as sweet as the supermarket juice though. So for my first attempt I reduced the pH to 3.5 with malic acid. Next time I'm gonna do the same but also add more tannin - hopefully the tannin will have suggestions for how much per gallon to use (I can't find anything that might suggest how much at the moment).

I've yet to work out how I might simulate a proper Breton/Normandy "pommage" (or is it pommace ?) type mix to simulate their taste i.e. something that might equate to a blend of juice for example A% bitter sweet apple, B% bitter sharp, C% sweet and D% sharp but I'm still looking to see if I can find out the differences.

We have also planted some trees - 2 eating apples, 2 cider apples, 1 eating pear and 1 "cider" pear. Though I suspect it'll be a few years before we see any results.

As for cider apples, well there does seem to be a place in West Wales that will sell them - didn't notice which variety they might be though. Plus the bloke I got the half gallon demi-johns from said that although he doesn't normally sell them, he'd let me have some if I wanted (there was about 2.5 "apple bins" to the tonne) - I said that I'd probably get a crane bag full to see how I got on (he also said that his biggest customer for cider was "Middle Farm" - it's quite nice i.e. tasted rather "woodpecker" but is 8.4% ABV - and yes he did give me a litre bottle).

If I can find the link to the place in Wales I'll post it - though I'd suspect they won't be cheap i.e. shipping costs etc.

regards

JtFB

p.s. if you want some half gallon DJ's I'm only down the road a few miles.

[Paulwales]

Just caught up with this Cider thread........any news on where the Apple place is in West Wales?