Resources for Grape Vines

[Mel]

I thought it might be a good idea to post a few resourses all together for those after vines.

National Vine Collection - just under new ownership but very helpful contact sarah.bell AT seabass.co.uk. They provide rooted cuttings at £10 including postage or bare wood cuttings (to root yourself) at £4 each minimum 3. Vast selection or varieties , including experimental ones ! No web page as yet.

Deacons Nursery Have a good Selection of vines, this is my first year buying vines but I know from fruit trees I've bought their stock is good quality
http://www.deaconsnurseryfruits.co.uk/grapes1/ I have bought MADELEINE ANGEVINE from here this year.


http://www.vinesforwines.co.uk/ I've not used them myself ...as yet !

http://www.thevinehouse.co.uk Who I found wonderfully helpful, but they tend to sell in larger amounts of single varieties than I really wanted.Once I get one I can propogate off that. But a great place for those wanting to start a vineyard !

http://www.victoriananursery.co.uk/vine_fruits/ Is a supplier I used for several other oddities. But not vines yet !

I got my Sauvignon. Blanc from http://www.blacklandsplants.co.uk/


This is a German supplier, I assume they can ship with the EU http://www.baumschule-horstmann.de/s...pagerOffset=10

Another vine supplier with pages of useful information

http://www.winegrowers.info/index.htm

Grafted vines http://www.vineandwine.co.uk/vines.htm

http://www.jparkers.co.uk I bought some Sauvignon. Blanc , Cabinet Sauvignon and MADELEINE Sylvaner via the Guardian a few weeks ago they were cheap at the end of the season, £2.95 and most have taken off although 2 needed replacments as they doidn't.

Also if anyone wants to have any cuttings once mine are established they are welcome to some. Currently I can only offer an unknown black grape, as it is my only mature plant. This vine grows & ripens happily in Leicestershire on a North facing wall & makes good wine. (I did not chose its location !)


I hope others can add to these & thanks to those that suggested many of them, here & elsewhere.

[lockwood1956]

remember that taking and rooting cuttings means there is no phyloxera resistance. This is why American rootstock is used. It is resistant. Phyloxera wiped out all the vines in europe in the 1850's

[lockwood1956]

will add more later. Doing this from my phone and it keeps booting me

[Mel]

remember that taking and rooting cuttings means there is no phyloxera resistance. This is why American rootstock is used. It is resistant. Phyloxera wiped out all the vines in europe in the 1850's

There is little phylloxera in the UK and it is contained. http://www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pestnote/grape.htm


DEFRA recommend not planting Seyval Blanc BTW due to its lack of resistance.


But in a small isolated, non commercial growing situation, where one grows from vines bought it from a certified free source, the risk to vines on their own roots is likely to be small. Certainly one I'm happy to take as I much prefer own root plants where possible Grafting carries its own downsides.

[Mel]

Grafted vines http://www.vineandwine.co.uk/vines.htm

[lockwood1956]

There is little phylloxera in the UK and it is contained. http://www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pestnote/grape.htm


DEFRA recommend not planting Seyval Blanc BTW due to its lack of resistance.
.

Its certainly an area open to debate, but I am not sure I trust DEFRA


is this the same DEFRA that said there wasn't a problem with BSE?

or that CJD wasn't an issue?

rootstock for me, it only takes a few mites to destroy ALL of your crops, and I have 100 vines, so I'm not taking the risk.

but take the point on it being "contained" but if enough non grafted vines are planted, then they will thrive again.

regards
bob

[lockwood1956]

from the DEFRA website

Damage is most severe on European vines growing from their own roots.


Tolerant rootstock's will support populations of phylloxera which produce some root galling, but the root galls do not have a detrimental impact on the plant or significantly reduce grape yields.

It takes at least three years to produce fruit, I lost crops the last two years due to birds and then the year after, i netted, only to have squirrels remove the netting and birds getting them again, this represents 5 years of growing and to date 3/4 litre juice. to lose vines at this point because of phylloxera would be truly devastating.

Resistant rootstock is the only sensible option in my opinion, I know the risks are reasonably small......but why take the risk?


great links by the way Mel...thanks for sharing, wanted to say that earlier but kept getting booted out, as i was browsing at lunchtime on my phone.

regards
Bob

[Mel]

It takes at least three years to produce fruit, I lost crops the last two years due to birds and then the year after, i netted, only to have squirrels remove the netting and birds getting them again, this represents 5 years of growing and to date 3/4 litre juice. to lose vines at this point because of phylloxera would be truly devastating.<snip>

Resistant rootstock is the only sensible option in my opinion, I know the risks are reasonably small......but why take the risk?
<snip

With 100 vines and only 3/4 litre of wine, yeah I can understand your desire to cosset them. But I've also a great faith in nature surviving. Trouble is with anything grafted there is a change in the fruit itself, more and more studies `show this & the other resistance can drop . Its a long involved argument. But my one vine produces several gallons of wine just to make you really sick !

I guess I'm used to the ups and downs of crops, only on a minor scale but each year it is a knife edge with my hay & without it my expense fly up.

So why take the risk. Firstly I consider it small & plenty of people I know are producing good quantities of wine with own root vines. Maybe the slow start you get is due to the rootstock ? I don't know much about grafting grapes, but I suspect I'll learn. IF I did decide to go for grafted I'd do it myself anyhow which again would be cheaper. If I got infected I guess I'd graft some over, maybe I'll do some anyway for belt and braces. But I enjoy the growing from cuttings as well as the brewing.

Perhaps I'm a natural risk taker ? And own root stuff allows me to share with others easier.

Certified stock is pretty easy to get & the hot water safety kill any bugs recommendations get good write ups of sucess.

At the end of the day I guess it is an individual choice & I think the links give a good choice of grafted and non grafted "safe" stock.

[lockwood1956]

At the end of the day I guess it is an individual choice & I think the links give a good choice of grafted and non grafted "safe" stock.

Couldn't agree more ......


wasn't trying to convince you to change, just putting the other side of the coin.


The grafted rootstock from the vine house are only £2 each if you buy 25.....if you buy them individually they are more like £5 so its worth thinking about.

[Mel]

I'm not sure suggesting that the only sensible way to plant vines is on grafted rootstock, is just putting the other side of the coin. It is rather suggesting those people planting from cuttings lack sense lol !

Either way is a clonal way forward and in my opinion is riddled with future problems. Vigour of grafted stock in most specices dimininishes over time to some extent and clonal reproduction, by grafting or cuttings will not improve resistance.

Grafted stock is only MORE resistant, it is not non supportive and it allows phylloxera to continue to have a host. Similar to specices specific roundworm burdens being perfectly tolerable in the host species as the two have co evolved. However phylloxera will evolve at grafting is unlikely to save the vine forever, just as past chemical lice treatments are no longer useful against the lice of today.

The only long term solution IMHO is either irradication of phylloxera via quarantine , certification and other methodology( this is good practice in its own right & thinking one is safe because of the grafted stock is less likely to push this route) or working on strains of grapes that are resistant on their own via adatation. Clonal propogation is highly unlikely to produce such a strain, sports off clones are far rarer. There is work being done on environmental factors and those strains that appear to be immune (but may be only demonstrating immunity due to environment)

Incidentially phylloxera did not wipe out all the vines in Europe, it certainly devestated large areas, particularly of France. But it was by no means a total wipe out.

Grafting was, without doubt, a really important factor in keeping many important stains going at a time of crisis. But we should not fool ourselves that it will provide a long term solution which is cast iron. Nature just does not work that way !

[Zebedee]

I've read this thread with interest
and taking into account your opposing views, I have come to the following conclusion.....











I haven't got clue what your talking about

[Mel]

I haven't got clue what your talking about

Oh dear sorry

Do you care ? What I mean is if you want to know the pros & cons I'll try & do a better job of explaining them !

[Zebedee]

Lol my post was tongue in cheek....

Athough I find it vaguely interesting, unfortunately green fingers are completely lacking in my genetic makeup (even plastic flowers die on me).

The life cycle of anything organic before it appears in a shop is a complete mystery to me.

Its mainly the difference of opinion in the thread that holds my interest.
Athough I don't understand all the implications, I will try to be supportive (I'll hold your coat if it ends in 'fisticuffs')

[Mel]

Thought it might be, but I do recognise I'm inclined to go into acedemic speak or far deeper than normal palance & peoples eyes glaze over, so thought I'd better ask

I'm sure it won't end in fisticuffs, from my perspective other points of view are always interesting.

[lockwood1956]

Zeb

you are a naughty boy, have yourself spanked immediately