Flavors of Different Honey

[StockeyDAW]

I thought you might all enjoy this information concerning the flavors of different honey. Kind of a good bit of information and helps us in determining the honey we want for our next mead. Cheers Daw

http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-varieties.html

[fatbloke]

I thought you might all enjoy this information concerning the flavors of different honey. Kind of a good bit of information and helps us in determining the honey we want for our next mead. Cheers Daw

http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-varieties.html

An excellent article DAW.

Except it's now added to my confusion about honeys. I can get leatherwood from the local bloke, but the article suggests that leatherwood is a species of eucalypt. I've read Bob's comments/suggestions in respect of "proper" eucalyptus honey, but I'm now wondering whether the same idea would also apply to leatherwood?

Plus I see that there's no mention of the "Killer Bee Honey" that was in your link to "the beefolks" website.

That's got to be the best. For the name alone

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

Ya that is a problem when we read articles like that. I can not imagine where the killer bee honey comes from - must be somewhere in South America or Africa?

I like the description for Heather and Buckwheat and the others are also great.
Cheers Daw

[fatbloke]

Ya that is a problem when we read articles like that. I can not imagine where the killer bee honey comes from - must be somewhere in South America or Africa?

"Killer Bee Honey is a wildflower honey produced by the Africanized Bees of Brazil."

I like the description for Heather and Buckwheat and the others are also great.
Cheers Daw

Yup I thought they seemed good as well.

I must read my "making mead" book again (for about the 5th time). I seem to recall that they thought Clover was great, but for some reason, were critical of the mead making ability of Heather - I just don't remember why (or if my memory is just a pile of pooh).

If/when I read it, I'll post a precis of it to see what you reckon DAW.

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

"Killer Bee Honey is a wildflower honey produced by the Africanized Bees of Brazil."
Yup I thought they seemed good as well.

I must read my "making mead" book again (for about the 5th time). I seem to recall that they thought Clover was great, but for some reason, were critical of the mead making ability of Heather - I just don't remember why (or if my memory is just a pile of pooh).

If/when I read it, I'll post a precis of it to see what you reckon DAW.

regards

JtFB

Here is a link in Whales for Heather among many other types of honey -- looks really good. Meadery also--- I believe we can make a good mead out of the Heather Honey - might require blending with something? or some ageing time (but not much information to confirm this - Drambuie --- might be less than we think - would have to try to find out? How old is the Heather Mead in this meadery from Whales?). It will take some thinking and planning. Cheers Daw

http://www.thehoneyfarm.co.uk/honey.asp

[fatbloke]

Here is a link in Whales for Heather among many other types of honey -- looks really good. Meadery also--- I believe we can make a good mead out of the Heather Honey - might require blending with something? or some ageing time (but not much information to confirm this - Drambuie --- might be less than we think - would have to try to find out? How old is the Heather Mead in this meadery from Whales?). It will take some thinking and planning. Cheers Daw


http://www.thehoneyfarm.co.uk/honey.asp

Hum? a nice, well put together site.

Though it's of a type that I don't frequent. Why? Well to start with, the packages they have pictured remind me of those christmas magazines that sell over priced, nicely packaged stuff.

I looked at their honey selection, and while it may indeed have a good provenance, it looked quite expensive i.e. the pack sizes are small (in very nice looking jars). Not the usual 1lb/454g or even the 500g size aimed at the rest (i.e. non-uk part) of Europe.

There does seem a lot of info about using heather honey, though I noticed the word that was (according to my book) used to describe heather honey in at least one of their site descriptions i.e. "Ling" (which last time I looked was a kind of sea fish ).

I can't imagine why the book should be against using heather honey, unless some heathers have a negative effect on honey/mead flavours. Much like Bob has mentioned about Eucalyptus honey.

Or as you suggest, that it makes a mead that needs a hell of a lot of ageing.

Though the book is 30 years or so old, so maybe it's to do with not having such good ingredients as those we have available now.

The book says about ageing mead "the longer the better". I seem to recall reading somewhere about there being a maximum time, after which no improvement is gained/possible. I don't recall how long that is though, but 8 years seems to ring bells (but that might just be a random number I've read somewhere).

So I'm guessing it'll be a case of getting some and giving it a go to see what happens.

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and I made the "double batch" using the Greek Honey I was on about. The recipe I followed measured 1.134, I used some tartaric (about 1 tsp per gallon) to bring the pH down to 3.23 (I figured that was as close as I was going to get without meddling too much). According to the yeast data sheet that Keith sent me, the "sweet mead" yeast batch will probably be very sweet, as it seems that the Wyeast sweet mead yeast will go to about 11% abv, whereas the Wyeast dry mead yeast will go to 18%.

I put a brew belt round both the jars, and (as, Hippie I think, said) the sweet mead yeast took about a day longer to start fermenting than the dry mead yeast, but they've both been bubble nicely for about 3 or 4 days now.

It means that my only question, is that instead of following a recipe blindly, how would I work out how much honey I'd need to achieve a certain S.G. to achieve a certain % abv, but being able to have enough sweetness left over. Or is it just better to always use a champagne type yeast and then ferment to day, sorbate and back sweeten ?

[Cariad66]

I've been told that there is a place selling top quality organic honey just outside Aberystwyth. Sells for about £4 a jar in shops but you can go and get it in tubs from behind the factory for £10 for 8lbs. I'll ask questions and get back to you.
Sounds too good to be true.

Nia xxx

[StockeyDAW]

Hum? a nice, well put together site.

Though it's of a type that I don't frequent. Why? Well to start with, the packages they have pictured remind me of those christmas magazines that sell over priced, nicely packaged stuff.

I looked at their honey selection, and while it may indeed have a good provenance, it looked quite expensive i.e. the pack sizes are small (in very nice looking jars). Not the usual 1lb/454g or even the 500g size aimed at the rest (i.e. non-uk part) of Europe.

There does seem a lot of info about using heather honey, though I noticed the word that was (according to my book) used to describe heather honey in at least one of their site descriptions i.e. "Ling" (which last time I looked was a kind of sea fish ).

I can't imagine why the book should be against using heather honey, unless some heathers have a negative effect on honey/mead flavours. Much like Bob has mentioned about Eucalyptus honey.

Or as you suggest, that it makes a mead that needs a hell of a lot of ageing.

Though the book is 30 years or so old, so maybe it's to do with not having such good ingredients as those we have available now.

The book says about ageing mead "the longer the better". I seem to recall reading somewhere about there being a maximum time, after which no improvement is gained/possible. I don't recall how long that is though, but 8 years seems to ring bells (but that might just be a random number I've read somewhere).

So I'm guessing it'll be a case of getting some and giving it a go to see what happens.

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and I made the "double batch" using the Greek Honey I was on about. The recipe I followed measured 1.134, I used some tartaric (about 1 tsp per gallon) to bring the pH down to 3.23 (I figured that was as close as I was going to get without meddling too much). According to the yeast data sheet that Keith sent me, the "sweet mead" yeast batch will probably be very sweet, as it seems that the Wyeast sweet mead yeast will go to about 11% abv, whereas the Wyeast dry mead yeast will go to 18%.

I put a brew belt round both the jars, and (as, Hippie I think, said) the sweet mead yeast took about a day longer to start fermenting than the dry mead yeast, but they've both been bubble nicely for about 3 or 4 days now.

It means that my only question, is that instead of following a recipe blindly, how would I work out how much honey I'd need to achieve a certain S.G. to achieve a certain % abv, but being able to have enough sweetness left over. Or is it just better to always use a champagne type yeast and then ferment to day, sorbate and back sweeten ?

I far as I know with all the reading that I have done on this Heather Honey - the heather grows in Whales, Scotland. Ireland in the moor lands. There are two Heathers that the bees collect the honey from: Pure Ling heather honey (calluna vulgaris-Ling) which is a honey with a slight bitter taste, reddish amber in color, very distinct aroma of heather and be gelatinous (trixotrophy). When this honey is tested by the judge it is turned on the side of the jar to see how long it takes to slide toward the lid- more points the longer it takes. I have checked the chemical composition for this honey and it is very similar to many other honey except for acids, moisture content and a slightly higher pH. The other type of heather honey is the Bell Heather (erica Cinerama). It is not gelatinious and has a less stronger flavor and a color nearest to port wine. It is often on the thin side. I have not been able to come up with the chemical composition of this honey (am still looking). If I were you folks over there and looking for a great little test in making mead and being able to make comments that would be very valuable as there are not many available to this date, I would be wanting to purchase 2 kg's of both the bell and ling or may be slightly more. Make 3 gallons of each the bell and the ling and then one batch of a blend of each. Great little test and interesting. I would like to do it but it would cost in the area of 300$ to have the appropriate honey shipped and with export duty and all I just can not afford that. I keep think about it and a suitable recipe that would be good for each. Cheers to both. Hope you are both able to find the ling and bell. Cheers Daw


I've been told that there is a place selling top quality organic honey just outside Aberystwyth. Sells for about £4 a jar in shops but you can go and get it in tubs from behind the factory for £10 for 8lbs. I'll ask questions and get back to you.
Sounds too good to be true.

[StockeyDAW]

Below are some very interesting information for Drambuie and Lochan-ora - Absolutely delicious Scottish liqueurs. Yest there is a lot of Heather Honey in those heavenly after dinner treats. And do we really think the heather honey is aged years???

http://www.artofdrink.com/2006/02/lochan-ora-scotch-liqueur.php

Drambuie has a simple history much of which I believe is myth.
Although it is alledged that the Prince gave the recipe to the
Mackinnon's in 1746 (Charles was 26 at the time) when they
provided him with a place to hide from the army of George II
until he could escape to France, it was not until 1893 that
there is any record of the existance of Drambuie - 137 years
later - and then it was at an Inn owned by the Mackinnons on
the Isle of Skye. It was not until 1910 that the Mackinnons
produced Drambuie for sale other than on Skye - 164 years later!!

They had several generations during which to fabricate the
Bonnie Prince Charlie story. But none the less it is a liqueur
made from Heather honey, aged malted whisky, and a blend of
herbs and ***es. God blessed the Scots with beautiful land,
fowl, and fauna. Most likely this was his penitence to the
Scots for whom he gave them for neighbors.

And that is what everyone is coming up with the idea that it
is aged heather honey... Don't know for sure. Just some of
the crazy people in the Scottish Community I run around with
keep trying to figure it out... and keep making some educated
guesses about it. But none of them really know. So, that is
why I would say 5 to 10 years of aging. But it is really
anyone's guess.

Next time you're in Scotland visit the Drambuie Distillery and
estimate the volume of aging heather mead. For them to be aging
for 5 years, they would need to have at least a half million
barrels just of the heather mead. Maybe 5 years was true 30
years ago. It's more likely less than 6 months today


FB -- I think that you could use the Got mead Calculator for the information on SG and Alcoh content?

I do not like the champagne yeast - for my tastes it seems to take all the flavors out of everything and leaves a champagne taste?? I prefer honey and fruit and spice flavors in my Mead's?? My opinion. I like the 1122, 1116,D47, the red Star premier cuvee or red Star pasture red as the yeasts I use for mead. If absolutely necessary I would use 1118 but generally when this happens I go to red star premier cuvee. My opinion

You have the pH in the right area for the Greek honey and the use of the tartaric is right on base.

I have used the sweet liquid mead yeast but have stopped using it because I cannot rely on getting it through customs before the ice pack runs out?? at least that is what happened the last time.

Just a reminder for the Greek honey mead that you are making -- remember the yeast energizer boost at approx the 4 day after fermentation starts.

Did you notice on the link from Wales that they have heather mead for sale? Would be nice to try some to get an idea what it is like and exactly what heather the bees were nectaring on?

Just another note for the ling heather honey; there is a much longer process of getting the honey out of the honeycombes. this is logical as it is of gelatinous consistency.

Cheers -- Hope this is of some interest Daw

[fatbloke]

---%<---
FB -- I think that you could use the Got mead Calculator for the information on SG and Alcoh content?

I do not like the champagne yeast - for my tastes it seems to take all the flavors out of everything and leaves a champagne taste?? I prefer honey and fruit and spice flavors in my Mead's?? My opinion. I like the 1122, 1116,D47, the red Star premier cuvee or red Star pasture red as the yeasts I use for mead. If absolutely necessary I would use 1118 but generally when this happens I go to red star premier cuvee. My opinion

You have the pH in the right area for the Greek honey and the use of the tartaric is right on base.

I have used the sweet liquid mead yeast but have stopped using it because I cannot rely on getting it through customs before the ice pack runs out?? at least that is what happened the last time.

Just a reminder for the Greek honey mead that you are making -- remember the yeast energizer boost at approx the 4 day after fermentation starts.

Did you notice on the link from Wales that they have heather mead for sale? Would be nice to try some to get an idea what it is like and exactly what heather the bees were nectaring on?

Just another note for the ling heather honey; there is a much longer process of getting the honey out of the honeycombes. this is logical as it is of gelatinous consistency.

Cheers -- Hope this is of some interest Daw

2 brilliant posts there DAW.

The one where you refer to the curious tastes that Ling can confer on mead is what I seem to recall the "making mead" book alludes to.

Which suggests to me, why they didn't like the idea of using Heather honey for mead, but as you say, there must be something that's OK about it, because the millions of people around the world who enjoy Drambuie must have a point! (sorry, I've never heard of Lochan-ora. Maybe it's one of those products that is aimed at conferring "Scottishness" on those with family origins in Scotland. Either that or it might be the work of the "brand nazis". Good example of that being "Johnny Walker" whiskey - which seems to be rarely seen in the UK (if ever), though it's probably one of the worlds larger selling brands, if not larger, certainly more famous).

As to how easy it might be to get proper, pure ling Vs. bell heather honey is anyones guess. I suspect you suggestion of an experiment would be a brilliant idea if the raw materials could be obtained with a guaranteed purity. It seems that it's not quite that easy though.

Nia's comment about getting bulk honey sounds brilliant - though I'd still have to have it shipped, because it's at least a 4 hour drive to the south Wales area from my part of the South Coast of England, it's then at least another 2 hours or so to get to Aberystwyth (when I lived in Wales as a kid, it was one of those areas that we avoided due to the not so good roads - so we tended to stick to the southern Coast of South Wales - Mumbles, Pendine area and Pembrokeshire - beautiful. Whereas the Cardigan Bay area would have been a bit of a hike!).

The bit about the differences between the Bell and Ling, would, to me, suggest that Ling might have a higher sugar content - as I understand that's what makes it thicker/more dense/slower running. Though as usual, I might have got the wrong end of the stick. I suspect I'll make small batches of whatever heather honey I can get my hands on, when I've worked my way through the list of honeys stocked by my local dealer (the smaller batches to keep the cost down and plus I haven't got a huge amount of appropriate storage area).

As for yeasts, well so far, my favourites have been 71B-1122 and D47 - but I'll have to work out how to reduce the honey content, because they don't seem to get to the high levels of alcohol that champagne yeasts, but I want to get some base (residual ???) sweetness i.e. the right amount of honey to get the suggested %abv for the yeast, but with 2 or 3% sugar still left in the finished mead. I'm thinking that that would be a good way of avoiding the "medicinal" taste that can often be found in meads that have been made with yeasts that produce higher alcohol content. I'm not worried about producing rocket fuel - I've got other ways of doing that , but a nice, "normal", sweet mead (perhaps it would be considered "sack" mead ???) - which is why I threw champagne yeast into the thread i.e. make a mead that has high alcohol, ferment it dry, sorbate it and then enhance the honey flavour with 1 or 2 pounds of the original honey to retain it's base flavour and then age it for 6 months to a year - or something like that anyway.

Curious that you liked the 1116 yeast (presuming the K1V-1116 here), because when I did my 3 batch experiment, I found it to be the least palatable of the 3 I tried (71B, 1118 and 1116). The 71B was the best, the 1118 had a crisp dryness (and medicinal taste) and the 1116 seemed to have produced a bland dryness (and same medicinal taste as the 1118). Though in fairness - I know as little about tasting now, as I did when I made the test batch then. I try to use others guidance on such matters. I don't know how the 2 higher alcohol parts of the batch have turned out yet, they're still under the stairs ageing in bulk.

Maybe it's time to get them out and give them a try .

regards

JtFB

p.s. @ Cariad66, Nia if you could locate a like for the honey supply place at Aberystwyth, that'd be great.

[fatbloke]

I've been told that there is a place selling top quality organic honey just outside Aberystwyth. Sells for about £4 a jar in shops but you can go and get it in tubs from behind the factory for £10 for 8lbs. I'll ask questions and get back to you.
Sounds too good to be true.

Nia xxx

Too good to be true ? Not necessarily. That'd be about £1.25 per pound i.e. supermarket prices before the supermarkets get their hands on it. Tesco have it in the £1.60 per lb region for their cheaper retail price so factory/producer discount in an 8lb bucket would be excellent, if available to the public.

regards

John

[fatbloke]

A quote from &quot;my&quot; book!

The following quote is from the "Making Mead" book by Bryan Acton and Peter Duncan (my copy is a "4th impression" dated 1968).

From the chapter "Honey for Mead".

Most English apiarists will affirm that English honey has more flavour in it than foreign honeys, and a simple test of buying some honeys and tasting them will generally prove that this is true. By and large, English honey is full-flavoured while foreign honeys are usually somewhat milder.

Most mead-makers (who, at present, are mainly bee-keepers) will also assert that because heather honey is our most full-flavoured honey it will also make the best mead. We are not bee-keepers and have no allegiances to maintain in that direction, and we must take issue on this point very strongly. Mead in its matured state is very much like a good white wine, and as such may reasonably be expected to reach full maturity with tow or three years. As it happens, heather honey imparts such a strong flavour to mead that it tastes unbalanced unless it it matured for perhaps as long as eight years.

Undoubtedly heather mead so matured is excellent beyond words, but this zealous devotion to heather honey has given birth to the idea that all meads require such lengthy maturing. Such a belief has for years bedevilled the winemaking world and has prevented a great many winemakers from trying their hand at mead making.

The way round this impasse is to use more delicately flavoured honeys or to use heather honey in smaller quantities mixed with fruit juices in melomels. Under these conditions meads and melomels mature as early as do white fruit wines, and we have even tasted some good meads (one a first prize winner at a big show) that were only a few month old.

In our view, the finest meads are made from single-blossom honeys, and of these, clover, acacia, orange, rose, wild-rose and rosemary are outstanding.

They are easily obtainable from most stores these days, although if one can obtain English clover honey direct from a bee-keeper it is worth the slight extra expense. The reason is, of course, that such honey is fresh and, in common with other winemaking ingredients, will produce better mead because none of its delicacy has been lost during storage.

Mixed blossom honeys rank next as mead-makers, but the mead does not have quite the same character and its flavour will generally prove poorer than that obtained from single-blossom honey.

Below these honeys we place heather (or ling) honey, for the reasons already stated. It is entirely a matter of the time element. If you are a patient winemaker and can wait either years, then put heather honey up near the top of your list, but not otherwise.

Any typo's are either of my making or because "the system" doesn't actually recognise the word (e.g. melomels).

Though that explains where I get some of my notions/ideas/suggestions.

I should point out that some of the language that this book is written in, does sound, by todays standards, a little "jingoistic".

So it should be remembered that it was written originally by people who were educated in the 40's/50's/60's, who would still been aware of the "we won the war" and "buying British is best" type notions.

I was thinking that I might type out the whole book (except the photo graphics), as it's out of print and for many, hard to get hold of. Though I'd probably have to include a note so anyone not from the UK would appreciate that the advice in it, was written 40 or so years ago. I'll put some more thought into it though as I wouldn't want to "tread on anyones toes". Just to make it available in a sort of "lending library/lending a book to a mate" way, and not deliberately violating anyones copyright.

I don't know how long since "amateur winemaker" hasn't existed, or whether the original authors are even still alive. Trying to locate any current rights holders wouldn't be worth the expense/effort. So whether it's worth typing out/scanning/whatever the original book point is negated a bit, and what I'd need to think about. Typing out quotes isn't a problem because I was taught to "copy type" by the Royal Navy !

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

FB -- Do you know anything about the Cornish Heather Honey (bell - erica cinerea) re: lowland heaths of Cornwall's most southerly peninsula - lizard peninsula? This sounds like it might be close to you and where you would be able to find some bell heather honey? Cheers Daw

[fatbloke]

FB -- Do you know anything about the Cornish Heather Honey (bell - erica cinerea) re: lowland heaths of Cornwall's most southerly peninsula - lizard peninsula? This sounds like it might be close to you and where you would be able to find some bell heather honey? Cheers Daw

http://www.kernowharvest.co.uk/subprod/pure-cornish-honey-0001428.aspx

http://www.cornwallhoney.com/products.html

Both these links suggest that it's damned expensive. The first link shows £6.59 per lb which currently is 13.65 $Can.

I'd not heard of it. Though you are a bit out distance wise, because Plymouth (the real one), sits on the Devon/Cornwall border. Lands end, which is the farthest point down the Lizard, is nearly 90 miles from Plymouth. So that's some 300 or so miles from me.

In fact, I'm closer to Paris (yes, the French one) than I am to Plymouth.

I know that compared to Canadian distances, it's a drop in the ocean, but it's still a good 6 plus hours drive to get right down into Cornwall. Plus our local geology is very different. My part of the south coast is on chalk (same as Dover, which is the best part of 90 miles east). Cornwall is on granite. So the flora/fauna is very different as well.

Dunno if any of those links help to explain it though. Either way, I'd still have to get it shipped - given the high price per pound, it's unlikely that I'll ever get any. It'd probably be cheaper for me to have some of that "Killer Bee Honey" mailed. And I'm thinking that'd include the shipping charge.

Ridiculous eh! Not surprising that "they" moan that the British tourist industry is going down the pan. You wouldn't get many people prepared to pay that much!

It certainly puts the 500 + $ for Scottish Heather honey you mentioned into perspective. It's expensive but not quite as bad as it may seem compared to 13.65 $Can quoted at the sites above. Now that isn't expensive, it's damned right extortionate!

What do you think ?

regards

JtFB

[StockeyDAW]

Ridiculous eh! Not surprising that "they" moan that the British tourist industry is going down the pan. You wouldn't get many people prepared to pay that much!

It certainly puts the 500 + $ for Scottish Heather honey you mentioned into perspective. It's expensive but not quite as bad as it may seem compared to 13.65 $Can quoted at the sites above. Now that isn't expensive, it's damned right extortionate!

What do you think ?


You are right; that is about 3x the cost of the honey that I get from around here and there is still the shipping and import costs on top of that. Sorry also to much for me. Just thought it may be OK for you but when you explain the distances and terrain that you have to travel through I can see the added expense for you. Anyway I hope that someone will take on the opportunity - it would be an extremely interesting project. Cheers Daw-- Still hoping one day to be able to get some to try it myself.!!