Acid and Nutrient?

[happymondays]

Ok here I go again,

I have taken on board that we add acid whether its a blend or citric, tartaric, in one form or another at the start of ferment and around 3.0 / 3.5

Now I started a couple of batches around 3.5 Ph they have finished fermenting racked, stabilised and de-gassed, I have just measured Ph they are all around 2.96. I didn't test the last commercial mead for Ph, so is this about right and if so why the drop in Ph from start of ferment to finish, is this due to the yeast and nutrients during ferment?

Now since I did Joe Mattioli's Ancient orange
I had a look on

http://www.gotmead.com/

which Daw kindly put on here via the Got Mead Starting Gravity Calculator post, were I found the recipe,

I had a look for some other recipe ideas by Joe and found a Pyment he has done that is ready in 5 weeks and I will post up soon!
By the way its an awesome site for anything about Mead,

anyhow I had a search for ideas by Joe and I read a few posts about adding acid AFTER ferment to suit individual tastes, is this an option and if so what would be a minimum Ph to start a successful ferment?

On nutrients,
on the same site and funnily enough by Joe he quotes the "Listerine taste after ferment" to be down to adding Nutrients, although its 3 years old he says

"I am now on my 17th batch in experimenting and I have found using as little nutrient supplement as is necessary unless I blend in which case I add none to be wise advice. None of my meads since that time have had the listerine taste or were undrinkable when finished."

but also says

"My only problem with starting fermentation was on an early batch with a very high OG of 1.150 (followed recipe but not anymore) and Cotes de blancs (epernay2) yeast which I changed to EC-1118 and stopped at my desired SG and had no problems. I have followed closely the advice of OG's in the range of 1.090 to 1.100, no boil, little or no acid at start and only grape tannin for clearing and astringency."

now I have searched and searched and every were I look always states to add nutrients to Mead recipes as honey is deficient in these nutrients to have a successful ferment, do nutrients add any OFF tastes?

what do you think?

I might try another plain Mead with a low SG 1.080 no nutrient and a higher Ph (ph4 / 4.5),
if I get a stuck or wont ferment can I adjust to kick it off afterwards?


I appreciate all the info I have had off everyone and as ever thanks in advance,

Regards Scott......

p.s. you can at anytime tell me to shut up

[fatbloke]

Ok here I go again,

I have taken on board that we add acid whether its a blend or citric, tartaric, in one form or another at the start of ferment and around 3.0 / 3.5

Which is about right, if I've understood DAW's advice correctly

Now I started a couple of batches around 3.5 Ph they have finished fermenting racked, stabilised and de-gassed, I have just measured Ph they are all around 2.96. I didn't test the last commercial mead for Ph, so is this about right and if so why the drop in Ph from start of ferment to finish, is this due to the yeast and nutrients during ferment?

If they are too acid, there's something that can be added to bring them up a little - I don't recall the name of it, but if you searched for pH related threads you'd find the name of it

Now since I did Joe Mattioli's Ancient orange
I had a look on

http://www.gotmead.com/

which Daw kindly put on here via the Got Mead Starting Gravity Calculator post, were I found the recipe,

I had a look for some other recipe ideas by Joe and found a Pyment he has done that is ready in 5 weeks and I will post up soon!
By the way its an awesome site for anything about Mead,

anyhow I had a search for ideas by Joe and I read a few posts about adding acid AFTER ferment to suit individual tastes, is this an option and if so what would be a minimum Ph to start a successful ferment?

As far as it goes, advice I've received from DAW about pH levels at the start of a ferment, 3.25 is what I recall being suggested to me

On nutrients,
on the same site and funnily enough by Joe he quotes the "Listerine taste after ferment" to be down to adding Nutrients, although its 3 years old he says

"I am now on my 17th batch in experimenting and I have found using as little nutrient supplement as is necessary unless I blend in which case I add none to be wise advice. None of my meads since that time have had the listerine taste or were undrinkable when finished."

but also says

"My only problem with starting fermentation was on an early batch with a very high OG of 1.150 (followed recipe but not anymore) and Cotes de blancs (epernay2) yeast which I changed to EC-1118 and stopped at my desired SG and had no problems. I have followed closely the advice of OG's in the range of 1.090 to 1.100, no boil, little or no acid at start and only grape tannin for clearing and astringency."

now I have searched and searched and every were I look always states to add nutrients to Mead recipes as honey is deficient in these nutrients to have a successful ferment, do nutrients add any OFF tastes?

what do you think?

Well I don't know about that, because just about everything I've read suggests that honey is very low in nutrients - I always add either Gervins "Minavit" or Tronozymol. I'd say that at very least, use vitamin B1 tablets.

I understand that the medicinal flavour is to do with the alcohol levels attained. Yes I've had that problem on a number of occasions but it's always gone after some ageing time.

I understand that it can also be caused by some honeys, the "making mead" book seems to suggest that heather honey might be one that can cause problems like that. I don't know, I've yet to make a batch from pure heather honey.

I might try another plain Mead with a low SG 1.080 no nutrient and a higher Ph (ph4 / 4.5),
if I get a stuck or wont ferment can I adjust to kick it off afterwards?


I appreciate all the info I have had off everyone and as ever thanks in advance,

Regards Scott......

p.s. you can at anytime tell me to shut up

Ha ha!, if you have an SG of 1080 Bob's conversion chart seems to show that you will still achieve 14.67% ABV, but you might want to check on the yeast you use and how much alcohol it tolerates.

I'm thinking that things like K1V, EC-1118 and similar high alcohol yeasts will ferment to dry - possibly too dry and need sorbate and back sweetening. 71B goes to about 14 to 15 %, but you'd have to check out the linked table that DAW posted recently to see. It shows the Lalvins, most of which are available in the UK (maybe by mail order though, depends on your local HBS).

It just depends on what you're aiming for. I prefer sweet meads as I suspect that that's how they'd have been made historically - given the types of yeasts that they would have had available.

I'd just say that you have a think about what you're trying to achieve. Either way, I personally would always use nutrient (even if it was only a teaspoon of marmite).

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and yes I agree with you, gotmead is a mine of information. I just wish it was better organised as I find it quite fragmented i.e. nuggets of gold/pearls of wisdom laid out like the pattern of a shotgun blast.

[happymondays]

Hi John,

Its all new to me and I probably should take one step at a time but I was just curious if I could make a mead or a wine for that matter with out too many chemicals, it was just the post's I saw about the addition of nutrients and acid that got me thinking, I could try to use the least amounts possible and compare along the way with the ones I have done to see what a difference it would make.

Also if there is any after taste in using nutrients and the need to age for so long, would omitting or reducing nutrients reduce the ageing time down,

I suppose I'm after a mead that actually tastes good and doesn't take years to mature,
the fun part is all this experimenting and trying different techniques and also asking you guys all these questions


Regards Scott....

[StockeyDAW]

[QUOTE=happymondays;28208]Ok here I go again,

I have taken on board that we add acid whether its a blend or citric, tartaric, in one form or another at the start of ferment and around 3.0 / 3.5 3.1 - 3.5 -- I am not a great fan of acid blend because we never know exactly the percentages of tartaric, Citric and malic acid that these packages contain. ALSO adding malic acid may encourage malolactic fermentation (MLF) and citric acid can be converted to acetic acid during the fermentation process. I therefore prefer to use citric and malic in a process before bottling when testing for acid and confirmatory pH if acid levels have to be adjusted - the pH meter works great for this.

Now I started a couple of batches around 3.5 Ph they have finished fermenting racked, stabilised and degassed, I have just measured Ph they are all around 2.96. I didn't test the last commercial mead for Ph, so is this about right and if so why the drop in Ph from start of ferment to finish, is this due to the yeast and nutrients during ferment? If we start our pH out below 3.5 the pH will likely decrease (THIS IS GOOD) and if the pH is started above 3.5 the pH will likely increase (THIS IS NOT GOOD)- we want fermentation to continue without sticking. We must remember that whatever pH level is started at the acid levels will tend to decrease during fermentation.

Now since I did Joe Mattioli's Ancient orange
I had a look on

http://www.gotmead.com/

which Daw kindly put on here via the Got Mead Starting Gravity Calculator post, were I found the recipe,

I had a look for some other recipe ideas by Joe and found a Pyment he has done that is ready in 5 weeks and I will post up soon!
By the way its an awesome site for anything about Mead, YA great site -- lots of info there and some good ideas and recipes!

anyhow I had a search for ideas by Joe and I read a few posts about adding acid AFTER ferment to suit individual tastes, is this an option and if so what would be a minimum Ph to start a successful ferment?You sure do not want to start any ferment with a pH lower than 3.1 --- we must use acid before ferment to adjust the pH of the mead to below 3.5 and above 3.1. Use tartaric here it gives our meads and wines the tartness that most of us like in varying degrees

On nutrients,
on the same site and funnily enough by Joe he quotes the "Listerine taste after ferment" to be down to adding Nutrients, although its 3 years old he says another description of this is a whiskey or earthy like taste. My suggestion why this happens is because of a low acid content during the fermentation process and also due to slow fermentation during both the primary and secondary fermentation process. We must make sure that the nutrient and energizer levels of the must are adequate or our mead is in for problems--- ie: slow or stuck ferment and as a result the collection of undesirable flavors during both the primary and secondary fermentation process.

"I am now on my 17th batch in experimenting and I have found using as little nutrient supplement as is necessary unless I blend in which case I add none to be wise advice. None of my meads since that time have had the listerine taste or were undrinkable when finished."

but also says

"My only problem with starting fermentation was on an early batch with a very high OG of 1.150 (followed recipe but not anymore) and Cotes de blancs (epernay2) yeast which I changed to EC-1118 this is a good choice but may I suggest that you try Lalvin KIV-1116 (higher alcohol melomels) especially for the melomels to maintain as much fruit flavor (71B-1112 is my favourite for overall meads except when alcohol is more than 16%) and color as possible and Red Star Premier Cuvee which has a slower fermentation process and retains some of the flavors in high alcohol meads. and stopped at my desired SG and had no problems. I have followed closely the advice of OG's in the range of 1.090 to 1.100, no boil, little or no acid at start and only grape tannin for clearing and astringency."

now I have searched and searched and every were I look always states to add nutrients to Mead recipes as honey is deficient in these nutrients to have a successful ferment, do nutrients add any OFF tastes?If you add to much of this they can leave a salty taste

what do you think?

I might try another plain Mead with a low SG 1.080 no nutrient and a higher Ph (ph4 / 4.5),
if I get a stuck or wont ferment can I adjust to kick it off afterwards? Sorry I start my meads with lower pH and I think that 1.085 is the lowest but each to their own. I hope it works out for you.

I appreciate all the info I have had off everyone and as ever thanks in advance,thank you this is how we all learn

Hope there are some ideas in here that you like - it works for me; but hey we are sure not perfect and there are many ways to make mead. You have probably found that out after checking through the GotMead site. Cheers Daw

[happymondays]

Thanks Daw for clearing things up, I suppose you dont learn unless you ask.

Regards Scott......

[StockeyDAW]

Thanks Daw for clearing things up, I suppose you dont learn unless you ask.

Regards Scott......

Scott - that is the way we all learn. We all have something to contribute that others can grasp onto and adapt to their way of doing things. Although Mead is the oldest fermented brew it still has not the research done on it as in wine. We are always learnig news things as we go through each new batch. A great example will be the pyment. Grapes already have the sugars that they need to ferment correctly now we add more fermentable sugars what happens? What happens with more acid grapes if they are used? Interesting process the pyments are going to be? Many have tried these pyments but I could not relate to any that I have reviewed? Cheers Daw

[happymondays]

Scott - that is the way we all learn. We all have something to contribute that others can grasp onto and adapt to their way of doing things. Although Mead is the oldest fermented brew it still has not the research done on it as in wine. We are always learnig news things as we go through each new batch. A great example will be the pyment. Grapes already have the sugars that they need to ferment correctly now we add more fermentable sugars what happens? What happens with more acid grapes if they are used? Interesting process the pyments are going to be? Many have tried these pyments but I could not relate to any that I have reviewed? Cheers Daw

Hi Daw,

Sounds like an interesting Mead to try as you say there will be a lot of factors to weigh up, I saw a recipe by Joe M, for the use of Welch's Purple Grape Juice which is "100% concentrate blended using American Concord Grape Juice 65% and Grape Juice 35%"

I have got one gallon on the go and it looks good really dark purple colour, this is just another experiment to see if it tastes as good as he says,

I know its using a supermarket juice but I take it the juice is quite a good one to use?

Regards Scott.......

[StockeyDAW]

Hi Daw,

Sounds like an interesting Mead to try as you say there will be a lot of factors to weigh up, I saw a recipe by Joe M, for the use of Welch's Purple Grape Juice which is "100% concentrate blended using American Concord Grape Juice 65% and Grape Juice 35%"

I have got one gallon on the go and it looks good really dark purple colour, this is just another experiment to see if it tastes as good as he says,

I know its using a supermarket juice but I take it the juice is quite a good one to use?

Regards Scott.......

Scott -- I have a good concord grape (type) recipe here (there are quite a few different cultivars of concord grapes) that I was going to modify and try this fall. I can get fresh picked concord type grapes at the farmers market. I plan to break the concord grapes open after washing and put them into zip lock bags and into the freezer. I will then go on from there just in the planning stage. I understand that with the concord grape the skins are so strong that if they are not broken apart the colors and juices are difficult to extract? (just what I have read). I know from past experience that freezing helps break down the cell wall and the juices will flow more freely. I am looking forward to trying this out. Cheers Daw

[compleat meadmaker]

Happymondays;

"why the drop in Ph from start of ferment to finish...(?)"

The reason for the drop in pH is that during the reproductive phase of the yeast's activity, the yeast population absorbs nutrients to use in the creation of cell wall mass, and also to use metabolically. Many of the compounds that the yeast are absorbing are also buffering compounds, which would otherwise keep the pH of the solution stable at its starting point. As they are used by the yeast, the ratio of acidic ions to alkaline ions moves in favor of the acids, and the pH will drop.

During the fermentation, the yeast will need to expel hydrogen ions as part of the conversion of sugar to alcohol. That hydrogen ion transport becomes more and more difficult for the yeast as the pH drops, and many yeast strains will just call it quits if the pH dops below about 2.9 or so. It can be extremely hard to restart fermentations when this condition has been permitted to occur.

It is also important that the cell walls in the yeast population are healthy, as they will be responsible for pushing alcohol out of the cell against the concentration gradient. I like to make sure that the Free Amino Nitrogen content of my meads is about 25 ppm for every % point alcohol I am shooting for in the finished mead - a mead I hope to have 12% ETOH would start with about 300 ppm of available nitrogen.

I am never one to add acid or acid blend before the fermentation, for exactly these reasons. I add the acid blend to taste after the fermentation is complete, if it is needed.

I hope this helps,
Ken

[happymondays]

I like to make sure that the Free Amino Nitrogen content of my meads is about 25 ppm for every % point alcohol I am shooting for in the finished mead - a mead I hope to have 12% ETOH would start with about 300 ppm of available nitrogen.

I am never one to add acid or acid blend before the fermentation, for exactly these reasons. I add the acid blend to taste after the fermentation is complete, if it is needed.

I hope this helps,
Ken

Thanks Ken for the reply,
yes that does help and would explain the drop, just a couple of questions though,
How do you add the Free Amino Nitrogen?
Is this to add Nutrients and also how do you measure ppm?

As ever thanks for all the info,

Best regards Scott.......

[compleat meadmaker]

You can add spent yeast, but I use diammonium phosphate. The nitrogen in it is readily absorbed by the yeast. Nitrogen is pretty much the growth nutrient, along with oxygen and phosphate. Yeast also needs potassium, biotin, magnesium and a number of the same vitamins we need to grow and metabolize sugar.

At the rate of 1g/liter, DAP contributes 258 ppm of usable nitrogen. Here is the protocol excerpt from an article I wrote for Zymurgy here in the States a couple of years ago. Most of us US home meadmakers are dealing with 5 US gallon batches (~19 liters), so adjust amounts accordingly.

"Where does this leave us? We want to prolong the growth phase as much as possible, without overfeeding the yeast. We want to provide a source of micronutrients. We want to supplement potassium levels, in particular in lighter colored honeys with lower mineral levels. I cannot make recommendations based on several batches of experience. I will, however, be modifying my practices for traditional 5 gallon mead fermentations with a gravity above 1.120 in the following ways:

1) Rehydration at 104° with Go-Ferm or other organic rehydration nutrient at a rate of 1.25 grams nutrient per gram of yeast. In all cases, understand that addition of nutrients by weight will be more accurate than by volume. Volumes are included for the convenience of those without the benefit of gram measurement devices. This equates to 3.0 lbs/1,000 gallons.

2) Addition of 3 grams (approximately .75 tsp.) of Fermaid K, plus 4 grams (1 tsp) of DAP per 5 gallons of must with a vigorous aeration at the end of the lag phase (6-12 hours, at the start of obvious fermentation activity). This equates to 21 oz. of Fermaid K plus 28 oz. of DAP per 1,000 gallons. For gravities above 1.125, increase these amounts by an additional 25%.

3) Addition of 1 gram (.25 tsp) of DAP, plus 1 gram (.125 tsp.) of Fermaid K with a vigorous aeration at 12 hour intervals until 50% sugar depletion, or five days, whichever occurs first (7 oz. of DAP plus 3.5 ounce of Fermaid K per 1,000 gallons).

4) Supplementing of the potassium levels to a minimum of 300 ppm with a potassium source. Food grade potassium hydroxide is an option for commercial meadmakers, but its handling and use would be problematic on smaller scales. For home meadmakers, potassium bitartrate or potassium phosphate are viable options."

I didn't list specific potassium details, as potassium concentrations vary from compound to compound. You may need to do some math there.

Again, I hope this is of service.

Ken

[happymondays]

Hi Ken,

Yes it is and if I understand you correctly you add a small amount of nutrient at the start of ferment and then add small additions during the initial ferment, which makes sense.
I am totally open minded to the process of making Mead as I am a beginner and from what I have read and found there are quite a few ways to make Mead, I am hoping to find a way that will produce a good Mead with a method that works well time after time.
So thats were I am experimenting a little bit with the nutrients I am adding and was just curious if the nutrients I buy like DAP or what I have Tronozymol (which according to the content on the packet is likely to be the same as DAP) is a better method or using other additions like Bee pollen or dried fruit could give the same result or better or worse.
I am not on the Organic band wagon just really want to try to see if modern methods is in fact a better way to go, all in all its all the experimenting thats half the fun just wish I had enough room to try lots more!!

Cheers Ken for the info loads to take in and a lot more Mead making to be done me thinks,

Best regards Scott......