A previous batch - how bizarre!

[fatbloke]

So, a while ago, I posted about making a batch to see how I got on with the Wyeast liquid mead yeasts (both sweet and dry).

I understand that these yeasts can prove a little temperamental.

Anyway, I made the batch(es) and started them.

On the face of it, they seemed to be progressing well.

Once again, I'd just followed the recipe - which I now know, give me a starting gravity in the region of 1130.

Anyway, I don't know why, but both of them stuck at about 1030. I wasn't sure what to do, so I put both gallons into a 12 litre water bottle and proceeded with a "stuck ferment" procedure - with EC-1118, in the hope it'd kick start then.

Oh and I'd topped the bottle up - honey and water I think it was.

So, for reasons that I don't understand, the "restart" didn't i.e. it didn't restart, despite having followed the posted instructions, having added some nutrient etc.

I'd resigned myself to have 12 litres of quite sweet mead to play with, well I say play, I was thinking of seeing what would happen if I added a little acid - taste-wise.

Over the last couple of days, I've noticed (when checking on my other batches), that it was bubbling like hell. The airlock wasn't moving, but I think that was because I had a bad seal, I've checked on that this evening and it's bubbling now.

Now I understand that it's possible that this could be MLF - I've never seen that, so don't know what it looks like, or how to check for it.

What I will say, it that I'm pretty sure it's not just some sort of release of CO2 by way of natural degassing.

If the bottle is 18 inches across - nearly 12 inches of the top is covered in a champagne bubble sized layer of bubbles, like a ferment at "full tilt".

I did the mix/restart/etc etc, over a fortnight ago, and would be surprised if it had "lagged" that long.

So I don't know what might have changed, but it really does appear to have recommenced fermenting.

How Bizarre!

regards

JtFB

[w_c_b]

Unusual, perhaps, but not unheard of. I have seen more than one case of "suspended fermentation," typically in bottled wines that have not stabilized, causing a once-still wine to become sparkling many months after all signs of fermentation have completely disappeared.

[lockwood1956]

Anyway, I don't know why, but both of them stuck at about 1030. I wasn't sure what to do, so I put both gallons into a 12 litre water bottle and proceeded with a "stuck ferment" procedure - with EC-1118, in the hope it'd kick start then.

Oh and I'd topped the bottle up - honey and water I think it was.

john they were stuck because of too much sugar in the must...you added more yeast, but also added more sugar thus compounding the problem.....

So, for reasons that I don't understand, the "restart" didn't i.e. it didn't restart, despite having followed the posted instructions, having added some nutrient etc.

You didnt follow the instructions dude...it doesnt say add more sugar!

Now I understand that it's possible that this could be MLF - I've never seen that, so don't know what it looks like, or how to check for it.

does it smell "cheesy" if so it could be MLF, but more likely is that the ferment has restarted due to lag phase because the yeast was stressed by the sugar level and the alcohol present.....

also temps have risen somewhat recently and this has also probably contributed

regards
Bob

[medpretzel]

You do not have a stuck ferment, John.

It's simply that the alcohol is too high for the yeast to survive.

It's like this.....

If we were to put you in a room with tons of oxygen, and you lived your life happily. You'd survive a few hours, if not days. But eventually, you'd die because there's just nothing left to do because of the excess carbon dioxide your breathing out.

If you were, however, to be given a lower dose of oxygen, and on a more regular basis, you'd learn to live with it and adapt.

That's the way it is with sugar/SG.

You're SG was way too high. The alc is killing your yeast.

[lockwood1956]

These problems you are having John are down to the basics not being right....

you need to revisit the basics of it all (leaving the more advanced stuff behind)

you keep making the same basic errors regarding sugar levels and must preparation, you will continue to have stuck ferments until you sort it out. You followed part of the advice in the stuck ferment thread, but then decided to add more sugar.....it was the fact that there was too much sugar in the must to begin with that caused the problem in the first place.......what on earth made you think adding more would help?

[lockwood1956]

You have had a drop from 1.130 to 1.030 (100) this equates to nearly 14% alcohol by volume...too much for most yeasts, and the likes of EC1118 will only go higher given optimum conditions, so there is a further problem compounding the excess sugar (which stresses the yeast) it has an almost deadly level of alcohol to contend with...it is truly a miracle that it refermented at all.

Get some reading of the basics of wine/mead making done.......or you will stay in the Groundhog day that is your current situation.....


how many stuck ferments will it take to make you realise your basic technique needs work dude (sorry to appear "snippy" or "rude" not my intention, but it pains me that you keep revisiting thwe same problems)

[medpretzel]

Quick review of stuck ferments and why they are called stuck.

Reasons:
1. too high sugar (in your case, John)
2. sulfite too high (not in your case, John)
3. Nutrient is pooped out (not in your case, John)
4. the powers that be. (not in your case, John)

So... with that being said, let's get to it.

1. Too high sugar. see above with the O2 deficit. Just ain't gonna happen if you bombard your wine/mead with too much sugar.
2. Sulfite your wine too much. You didn't. Most people don't. It's rare.
3. Nutrient. This is rarer than point 2.
4. Powers that be. sun? moon? stars? But if you start at an SG of that magnitude, you're bound for failure.

Now, more importantly, how to correct it.

TAKE THIS AS THE GOSPEL TRUTH! LET OTHER WEBSITES GO FOR A MOMENT.

1. ALWAYS start at an SG of 1.090 or lower. Don't ever tell me you started a mead/wine with a higher one because you're going to get into trouble later. With me. 1.090 is the major cutoff for a good wine/mead. And yes, it's an exact value. Don't got 1.100 and say it's "about 1.090" because it's not. THAT IS WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE ABOUT
2. If you want sweet wine or mead.... ALWAYS use sorbate and sweeten back up after fermentation is completed. Don't question, just do. Sorry to say, you've need to review your basics, if you haven't done this before.
3. If you want high alcohol mead, then feed your must when it hits 1.020. DO NOT TRY TO ADD SUGAR AT A HIGHER SG... 1.020 is better. It can be lower, but not higher. Trust me on this one.


Your NON-STUCK mead is just a product of too high sugar content.

Some clarification of the numbers....

you started at 1.130.... It fermented down to 1.030....

You have a high alc mead here. Just a guess... roughly 15%...

You're not going to get yeast to live in a 15% alc wine.

It's sweet, right? Because there's an overabundance of sugar there, and the alc is killing all action that the yeast want to do.

You can do all you want to, but this mead is finished because you started at a higher SG.

Now...

Let's look at the correct way to do it.

1. You start with the same recipe, AND USE YOUR HYDROMETER....
2. You start it with an SG of 1.080
3. You let it ferment to 0.990
4. You add 1 campden tablet EVERY OTHER TIME YOU RACK IT.
5. Once it's at 0.990 for AT LEAST 3 weeks, add another campden tab.
6. Then sorbate it (1 tsp per gallon, I believe)
7. THEN..... ONLY THEN.... You add more honey to taste. (or to an SG that you have measured in another mead)
8. THEN you let the sediment drop again, rack, etc...


THAT is the way you make a sweet mead or wine.

Don't try to disprove this. I am sure I have more than a few backing me on my theory.

[lockwood1956]

I absolutely concur


You see mead makers starting with higher SG's but that will only work with a perfectly balanced must and favourable conditions (in my opinion..too risky a strategy)

as you know (I've told you lots of times) 1.090 is a great starting point....gets the ferment underway well and develops a healthy colony of yeast...then when the SG is lower (Danina says 1.020...thats a good figure) add more sugars and attend to nutrient needs.

[medpretzel]

Just another note.

Print those guidelines out I wrote.... Please...

Do the EXACT RECIPE and use your hydrometer (for that's what it's there for), add honey until you hit the SG mark, and make note of the starting SG.

Do this and report back to us in about a month.

You won't have a problem with it.

I guarantee you.

[medpretzel]

But a question to you, John, what exactly do you think is a stuck ferment, and why does it occur?

Why are you bringing MLF into it? What do you think that means?

[StockeyDAW]

FB - just a few suggestions if you will permit and please stick it in your mind (only joking not being miserable). As I have shown you previously the liquid yeas will only ferment out to something like 11%. You have a must that was at something like 17.7 % (1.130). Please FB start your musts out at the yeast tolerance or in the area of 1.090. You will have much better complete fermentation process. Did you happen to measure the pH on this batch before you pitched the yeast? MLF is the result of converting the malic acid to lactic acid. It occures in high malic acid grapes (likely in pyments made with high malic acid grapes), cyser (apple mead) or as it is happening presently in my batch of blackberry.

You have done the correct procedures for reactivation of a stuck ferment. The (1118 yeast starter). yeast nutrient and energiser and we know that the yeast like an acid environment for good clean fermentation process. Check the SG once every two days - is it going down? If it is ferment it out to the 1.000 area or lower. You can always back sweeten if you want it sweeter. Cheers Daw

[lockwood1956]

You have done the correct procedures for reactivation of a stuck ferment. The (1118 yeast starter). yeast nutrient and energiser

I'm afraid he hasn't....he added sugar in the form of honey and water

the last thing a stuck ferment needs is more sugar

[Zebedee]

read through this thread with interest...

As I dont know what I am talking about , please bear with me

Would a way out be to add pure/plain water(thus diluting the alcohol level) or would this just cause the wine /mead to be too thin ?

[Mamgiowl]

What you need to do John is follow, TO THE LETTER, instructions for coping with a stuck fermentation.

If you can't be bothered with all that, cut your losses and use it as the base for a spritzer, using soda water, or even tonic water, to cut through the sweetness.

Nice to drink on a summer's evening out in the garden.

[lockwood1956]

Would a way out be to add pure/plain water(thus diluting the alcohol level) or would this just cause the wine /mead to be too thin ?

Well it would "thin" it down somewhat, but corrections to acid levels etc could be made.....

but by far the best way is to make style choices about what you are trying to achieve before you start the batch, as stylistic changes are harder once the ferment is underway.

(I'm loving the new Sig line Zeb by the way...too funny)