Joe Mattioli's Ancient Orange and spice Mead recipe

[lockwood1956]

Thanks bob.

How do i do that? lol

see here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1561

[sb44]

Hi folks, I haven't been on here for months at least but thought I would have another go at making some more AOM, so came back to check the recipe.

I am sitting here drinking some that I made in May 2008 and it is bloomin' lovely!

I think I will go over to the supermarket juice (No 1 wine) wine section and have another go at that.

Got stuck into a bit of a rut and couldn't be bothered with a lot of things, wine making being one.

[lockwood1956]

Hey there.....

Welcome back, good to see you having another go

regards
Bob

[waggoner]

Hi everyone.

Well, having another go at wine making, the last time was when i was in my eary 20's,, so,,20 odd years on, here i am again..

Been out and bought all the equiment and have a gallon of gooseberry bubbleing away like mad at the moment,,,

I fancied having a go at mead, and seen this recipe, so i had ago about an hour ago,,, all done and in the demijohn now...

Stupid question time!! my hydrometer, which was the only thing i kept from before, and which i never used!! Right,, i put it in the mixture and its floating at 140, which says 21% ALC, Is this right??? I don't know how to read one!!

I followed the instructions, but added closer to 4lbs of honey,, got a bit carried away!! I used Allinsons dried active yeast too.

Its just started to bubble very very slowly..but i'm a bit worried on the hydrometer reading if its right or wrong??

Thanks.

forgot to mention temp,, its 86F

[fatbloke]

Hi everyone.

Well, having another go at wine making, the last time was when i was in my eary 20's,, so,,20 odd years on, here i am again..

Been out and bought all the equiment and have a gallon of gooseberry bubbleing away like mad at the moment,,,

I fancied having a go at mead, and seen this recipe, so i had ago about an hour ago,,, all done and in the demijohn now...

Stupid question time!! my hydrometer, which was the only thing i kept from before, and which i never used!! Right,, i put it in the mixture and its floating at 140, which says 21% ALC, Is this right??? I don't know how to read one!!

I followed the instructions, but added closer to 4lbs of honey,, got a bit carried away!! I used Allinsons dried active yeast too.

Its just started to bubble very very slowly..but i'm a bit worried on the hydrometer reading if its right or wrong??

Thanks.

forgot to mention temp,, its 86F

Well unless you follow the recipe, then you'll end up with very sweet mead.

If you're getting a gravity of 1140, that's very high to start unless you're using wine yeast and aerating regularly and doing staggered nutrient addition etc etc.

Bobs calculation table for approx alcohol content gives 1140 (presuming finished at 1000) at about 19.3% ABV - bread yeast is unlikely to get anywhere near that.

I'd suggest that you let it run, but keep taking measurements weekly to make sure it's still dropping, then when it's finished as far as the bread yeast will go, let it clear and then search the forums to treat it like a "stuck ferment".

Or you could just get a 2 gallon fermenting bucket and then swap the contents over to that, add the other 2lb of honey, a second orange, spices, raisins etc and top it up to the 2 gallon mark and just run it as per the recipe.

It's always best to try and stick to the recipe exactly with JAO, because then you get a bench mark of how it's "supposed" to taste - then you can vary it to experiment (actually I've done that about 7 or 8 times and just about all the variations you can think of don't taste as good as the original).

S'up to you how you proceed.

regards

jtfb

[waggoner]

Hi jtfb.

Thanks for your reply.

I think i will go with your answer to let it run, taking measurements every week. I've searched the forum for stuck fermentation and found the answers, so that's pretty clear. Been reading up too on Hydrometers so pretty clear too on how to use them too now.

Its bubbleing away quite merrily, so fingers crossed,, good job too that i got a very sweet tooth..

Thanks.
Mark.

[waggoner]

The mead i made on the 11/9/10,, oranges are dropping and its clearing really well,, still bubbling slowly away,, and the SG is 1030 now..
Questions?? Do i rack it to a clean demijohn now?? and if i do, its going to need a lot of topping up,,as you can see from the photo,, what would i need to use to top it back up with?? would it be just plain water or a sugar water solution?
Thanks.
Mark.

[fatbloke]

The mead i made on the 11/9/10,, oranges are dropping and its clearing really well,, still bubbling slowly away,, and the SG is 1030 now..
Questions?? Do i rack it to a clean demijohn now?? and if i do, its going to need a lot of topping up,,as you can see from the photo,, what would i need to use to top it back up with?? would it be just plain water or a sugar water solution?
Thanks.
Mark.

No no, leave it as is Mark. Your picture looks wonderful, a lovely colour there, but as there's still fruit floating, let it do it's thing.

For info, using Bob's conversion chart, if the original hydrometer reading was correct, then that bread yeast has done brilliantly, as a 110 point drop is shown as 14.94% ABV.

Now allowing for some error (as you said before not being used to taking hydrometer readings.... but also allowing for some solids in the must), that's still pretty good going.

Using bubbles as a measurement isn't really helpful, because yes you get a lot during the main thrust of the ferment, but at this stage it could still be fermenting or it could be starting to de-gas naturally.

As it's already looking good, I'd suggest that as per Joe's original instructions, leave it for all the fruit to drop, then take 3 readings over a week - if they're the same, then you can pretty much presume that it's finished it's ferment.

Only then rack it off, but very gently, as bread yeast doesn't compact down (flocculate) very well and it's easy to disturb it back into solution.

If you left it till the end of next month (yes, I know, I was also impatient as hell when I first started - now I'm just lazy ), then as you rack/bottle it (a bottling tube/valve can come in very handy here), the first few bottles will be clear, but if you pick up a little sediment in the later ones, then you can just stand them in the fridge and it settles back out in a couple of days - to be carefully syphoned off again. Or you can also syphon the top part into wine bottles, and when you think you're in danger of getting close to the sediment, then syphon the last bit into a clear plastic pop bottle - that way, you can compress the bottle to remove the airspace, set that in the fridge, and when the sediment has settled into the moulded dimple parts of the bottom of the pop bottle (presuming that you save a bottle like that to use), it's then pretty straight forward to bottle/rack/syphon the last bit off with minimal racking loses.

If your figures are correct, or close, have a little taste, because some meads, when "young", can have a medicinal sort of taste, some just call it "alcohol hot", Ken Schramm, in his book, uses the analogy of "Listerine". That's not a fault, it's just something that needs to be aged out - which it will do, but it's also possible that the residual sugar will cover that and it'll taste fine, straight away.

If you then have the patience to leave it for 6 months, you'll be amazed at the changes. Mead is funny old stuff. There doesn't seem to be any way of making it so that it's ready, pretty much straight away, though some recipes just seem to be ready quicker than others (Joe's 5 week Pyment - apparently).

If you read the "JAO" thread over at Gotmead (yes it would be a mammoth reading session), then you'll probably see other little mods and changes that people have tried, to make it better, quicker etc, but I've also tried those and the original is still the best......

regards

jtfb

[waggoner]

wow.. thanks jtfb.

Yes ,, i 'll leave it alone then,, the end of next month is fine,and to leave it afterwards aswell,, i guess that's what wine making is all about or a big part of it anyway, is to have the patient to let things work out..

Even more oranges have dropped now,, not much left floating now..

I've tried it,, it kind of tastes like slightly mouldy oranges!! smell's the same too,,,hope that is ok??

When you said about bottling it, is it ok to bottle it straight into wine bottles, or would it need to be racked into another demijohn first to be safe??

I've had a look at the gotmead site,, its good,slowly reading thru it,, i never relised that making mead so popular,,always something i associated with olden days..lol...

Thanks for the help..
mark.

[fatbloke]

-----%<-----

I've tried it,, it kind of tastes like slightly mouldy oranges!! smell's the same too,,,hope that is ok??

When you said about bottling it, is it ok to bottle it straight into wine bottles, or would it need to be racked into another demijohn first to be safe??

I've had a look at the gotmead site,, its good,slowly reading thru it,, i never relised that making mead so popular,,always something i associated with olden days..lol...

Thanks for the help..
mark.

Mouldy oranges ? Well I've not noticed that in my batches, but there's often some odd smells - which are relative as we can smell the same thing and detect different traces, just like the differences in flavour.....

Once it's clear, you can bottle it straight into wine bottles, but it can be a bit of a pain as it's bread yeast that's been used and that doesn't compact down very well, so it's easy to pick up a bit of sediment by accident.

I tend to hold the racking pipe about half way down the batch, then you have more control over the bit that's going in the bottle. Of course, you can also rack it carefully into another DJ, so if you're worried about possible re-fermentation (which is unlikely as the bread yeast will have pooped out - wine yeasts go to a lot higher % ABV), you can rack it onto a crushed campden tablet and some sorbate/wine stabiliser. The second DJ can then be placed in the fridge for a day or two as that usually helps any yeast picked up to settle quicker (and you'll have reduced the amount that could end up in a bottle anyway). You then rack/fill into the bottles (carefully), any left that you're worried about transferring some of the yeast ? well, that can then be put into a milk bottle and back into the fridge. Once settled, it's easier to rack the last of the clear mead off the yeast and you've minimised the potential racking losses.

It's one of the reasons why people often scale it up to 5 gallons. It's a lot of hassle just for about 4 or so bottles full (which can get drunk quite quickly, but also with JAO specifically, because you have the fruit that can hold some yeast sediment as well as the actual layer of yeast sediment - you can often lose a little more).

After all, from a whole gallon you only get 6 bottles, hence if you make 5 gallons, you get at least 24 bottles/2 cases worth, and often a little more with care.

It doesn't matter whether it's being bulk aged or bottled, you do need to make sure that it has pretty much minimum of air space to age and won't oxidise (meads don't suffer from that like grape and other fruit wine in the same way, it seems it's more "hardy").

I'd say that you should probably keep it for at least 6 months, then try some and you'll notice a big change in taste.

Oh, and don't forget, if you can borrow a "crown capper", then you can bottle it in beer bottles, which might sound weird, but when you open the first one, if it's not ready, you don't have to drink the whole bottle, so with 500ml or even 330ml beer bottles, it gives you more latitude to taste and age further.....

If you read some of the books available (available? often out of print so you have to search through amazon market place to get copies - Ken Schramms book "the Compleat Mead Maker" is current, though it is aimed at US mead makers, but still an absolute mine of information), you will learn that some mead makers, even now, still age their meads for years. The oldest one I've got is about 3 years....

It's JAO so won't need that long, but I'd say at least 6 months (in small beer bottles you could taste some after 3 and it wouldn't be a problem).

Ha! see what I mean. JAO is a nice basic, easy to follow recipe, but it's easy to get carried away and start thinking of more advanced methods and techniques..... It's a bug that can be hard to get away from

regards

jtfb

[waggoner]

Many thanks again jtfb for your reply, its brilliant.

Well, the oranges are all down now, just a few sultanas and a pip left floating about now..
That sounds good that it is ok to put it straight into bottles,, i'll leave it till the end of next month and do that.
Yes, i can see that once it syphoned off,,its going to leave a lot of sediment behind,,the ideal of 5 gallons might not be a bad ideal... will see how this one works out,, the thought though of 5 gallons is a bit scary,, that seems so much..

I had a look at the book by Ken Schramm,, i'll put that on my xmas list

Thanks again for the info, much appreciated.

Mark.

[Platypus]

Hi,

Started my first ever batch of this Mead in October, in fact it's my first batch of ANY Mead.
All looks good so far except it doesn't want to clear!

I used Joe's 1 gallon recipe as closely as I could including optional spices, but had to make the following changes to make up for being unable to source all the correct stuff.

1) I used Marlow clear Summer Blossom Honey from LIDL
2) I used 1/4 stick cinnamon + 1/4 tsp ground cinnamon
3) I used Allinson bread yeast

The batch was started on 23 Oct and bubbled away nicely for a couple of weeks.
It then started to clear slowly, but never reached very clear at all.
I put the Demi-john in a cool place to help the sediment settle, but this has had no visible effect.
All the fruit has dropped, last raisin hitting the bottom almost a week ago, still not clear!

All the other posts seem to imply that it clears first then the fruit drops.

Have I done something wrong?
Am I just being too impatient?

Thanks
Platypus

[goldseal]

I notice the recipe says that it will clear by itself without any intervention from you. All wines/meads behave differently. Some may clear on their own, some may not.

Firstly, I would give it a few weeks to see what happens. You may want to rack it off the fruit, to ensure you don't get any off-flavours.

CO2 in wine will sometimes prevent it clearing, so if it still doesn't look as though it will clear, try degassing it.

If THAT doesn't work, that is the time to think about adding finings.

[Platypus]

Thanks, will try racking/de-gassing and see if that helps.

[fatbloke]

I notice the recipe says that it will clear by itself without any intervention from you. All wines/meads behave differently. Some may clear on their own, some may not.

Firstly, I would give it a few weeks to see what happens. You may want to rack it off the fruit, to ensure you don't get any off-flavours.

CO2 in wine will sometimes prevent it clearing, so if it still doesn't look as though it will clear, try degassing it.

If THAT doesn't work, that is the time to think about adding finings.

Thanks, will try racking/de-gassing and see if that helps.

Hum? Well in deference to Petes wisdom, I'd suggest that you just put it away somewhere and leave it for a month or two.

It's obvious that unless you're in the US you won't get the same brands i.e. the honey and yeast. That should make little to no difference.

Your use of ground cinnamon has potential for some unusual activity, as ground spices can produce markedly different flavours to whole spices.

As you're alluding to a batch from October (presumably Oct 2010), then there's still nothing to worry over, my first batch of JAO took 3 and a half months to clear and the fruit to drop (and a further 6 months to taste any good).

So I'd say that it's probably best to leave it and don't entertain the idea of racking and de-gassing. That'd be a "wine people" thing to do, meadsters tend to pay lip service to "that lot"

regards

jtfb