Hello and help, please.

[Colly]

Hello everyone, while I'm new to the forum I'm not new to winemaking - I've been making brews from everything and anything for several years. However, I've always followed recipes slavishly, and would now, with your help, like to take things on another level.
My problem is how to determine how much sugar to add to a must if I create my own brew. I've been looking at a book called 'Scientific Winemaking' which will probably illustrate my dilemma best. In the book, the author gives a set list of ingredients, and then tells you to test for specific gravity, and add sugar accordingly. However, how can I do this? Unless I have exactly a gallon of juice in the must, how will I get an accurate SG for the gallon? And if I do have exactly a gallon of juice, then I will have considerably more than a gallon after addition of sugar, which will obviously cause problems when it comes to straining to my DJ?
Should I ensure I have 4 pints of juice plus solids, and then double the quantity of sugar added that the hydrometer tells me I need? I'm sure that this is a stupid question with an obvious solution (yes, I know there's no such thing as a stupid question, but there is really, isn't there), and I hope I've explained myself properly, but I'd really like your help so that I can put on some elderberry and blackberry ports with the oodles of fruit I've collected this year. Cheers!

[godfrey]

I have not been making wine long, but I have stopped following recipes for quite some time

in an email for Andy Hamilton (author of booze for free) he told me

people have made fruit wines for hundreds of years with varying amounts of fruit

now I use what ever I can get my hands on


for a port style wine you will want 3KG or 6lb of fruit per gallon

I am currently making a plum port, you wont find the recipe... but this is what i have done so far


over 16KG of fruit all weight after de-stoning, frozen the fruit to aid juice extraction and defrosted last night

6KG of mixed berries of which 2KG elder, 2KG blacks the other 2 KG are raspberry, blue berry, black currant
9KG of mixed plum of which 1.6KG damson, 900g gauge, 800g vic, 3KG president and the rest are unknown variety
1KG grape from 600g of red wine grapes 400g black beauty desert grape

the fruits were defrosted yesterday and this morning 1 litre of merlot grape juice added after mashing by hand to thin the syrup
campden tabs have been added and pectolaise will be added tonight
yeast will be pitched tomorrow

also to add to this in the next few days still to decide quantities after BRIX and acid testing... i have

oak chips
3 litres of waitrose merlot grape juice
1KG blossom honey
2KG unrefined sugar
2KG sugar

also to add extra body I have 3 black bananas
young's red grape concentrate 3 tins


water top up to 4 or 5 gallons ( after removing the pulp for another brew )
if i squeeze the pulp I will make 5 gallons but i might make 4 and have more fermentable in the second brew on the pulp

I hope this helps with your port. i think elderberry and blackberry will make a handsome port, see if you can find some damsons
1 KG of each elder, blacks and plumb should be a good mix but any fruit will do !
3KG or 6lb mixed fruit per gallon !

please note a port style wine will want to age for many years or even decades.

[fatbloke]

Welcome to the forums.......

So, you don't need to blindly follow recipes, but they can be a good guide.

You don't need a full gallon of juice either. Sample testing tubes usually hold 100mls or you can try and find a "wine thief" that will contain a hydrometer.

Of course, its easy to take a gravity from a pure juice must, but if there's fruit pulp/flesh/etc it means that can spoil the reading either by getting in the way or because they may contain fruit sugars that don't get measured.

Generally speaking, if just the liquid is measured, its close enough, though there are tables around the net that suggest possible corrections to gravity depending on the type of fruit....

Equally, if you are starting a batch that has fruit in it, or is likely to need additional ingredients that may or will increase the volume, then instead of starting the batch in a DJ, make a 1 gallon batch in a 2 gallon bucket. Ferment it down then rack it off the lees into a 1 gallon DJ to finish. Any spare liquid can be put in a pop bottle and kept in the fridge as its handy for topping up etc.....

[Cellar_Rat]

how to determine how much sugar to add to a must if I create my own brew

Buy a refractometer. Ebay £10-15 makes the maths reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaally easy.

1 brix = 10g per liter.

[Original Mac]

Hi Colly and welcome. Are you fermenting on the pulp or extracting your juice first? I believe the only way to measure sugar content of a whole fruit is to use a refractometer. I use a steam juicer and my trusty hydrometer. As for sugar additions, 8 ounces of sugar is roughly 20 points on your hydrometer (per gallon). If your method produces more than a gallon then you could use a glass milk bottle for the remainder as it takes a bung quite nicely and you have perfect topping up juice at racking time. I am sure one of the hedgerow specialists will be along soon to help with pulp fermentation.

1 brix = 10g per liter.

That is easy, duly noted.

[Cellar_Rat]

...and read off the alcohol content you require

refractometer scale.jpg

[godfrey]

last night I added another litre of merlot grape juice
3 litres of water with 3kg sugar and a kilo of honey

SG about 1.110



yeast (GV4) was pitched this morning :-)

[fatbloke]

Well IMO, the sugar was a bit of a waste of time as it just adds to the strength of alcohol, whereas the honey makes it a "closet" (because the extra sugars weren't all honey ) Pyment a.k.a. a mead but made with grape juice instead of water.

Now that gravity is one that I recognise...... the mead world tend to start a bit higher than the wine world likes too.

I'm guessing that you should be OK for nutrients etc, given the amount of juice etc. Meads, normally, need a bit more nutrient than wines, because honey is famously low in nitrogen and other elements needed, but the juice probably negates that, though that still doesn't mean you can be complacent. It's still worth keeping a close eye, and nose on it, especially in the early stages of the ferment. Any bad smells, especially H2S/rotten egg, and you will need to think of aerating the hell out of it and extra nutrient i.e. fermaidK/fermax/tronozymol type "complete" nutrient and not just the stuff like Youngs which is almost entirely pure DAP.....

A start of 1.100, if it ferments down to 1.000, the drop of 100 points equates to about 13.5% ABV, so a respectable strength.

I'm thinking it'll still likely need ageing. A lot of the honey based brew can taste bleedin' horrible when first finished, but after a bit of ageing (I age mine for at least 6 months), it's like you're drinking a completely different brew.......

Well done.....

{edit} - p.s. while I remember, when using commercially produced type "supermarket" juices, it's always worth reading the label to check for preservatives, because stuff like Sodium Metabisulphite and Sodium Benzoate are a complete PITA, as they inhibit the yeast (sulphites can be encouraged to leave, but benzoate not so). If it's got Ascorbic acid as a preservative/anti-oxidant, that's fine, Ascorbic acid is vitamin C.......

[godfrey]

the additions last night were to the 16Kg of fruits I posted further up the page

the must is over 5 gallon now (with the fruit pulp)

I am really excited for this one and with the elderberry and honey
I do expect it to take many years to age properly

the GV 4 yeast is tolerant to 21% so I plan on adding more sugar
each day as I punch down the crust and mix the pulp back into the must

EDIT 1:
so far there is only 2 litres of supermarket juice in over 5 gallon must
the waitrose merlot grape juice list 100% juice on the ingredients

thanks for the tips on airation and nutrients
I completely forgot nutrient when I pitched
so I will look at investing in the nutrients
you advise as I only have the youngs DAP in stock
I think I will need to feed nutrient to get the high ABV I plan

working from 5 gallons at SG 1.110
and approximating 500g per 1% ABV
I think I will need another 2 or 3 kilo of sugar
added during the fermentation to get anywhere near 20%

EDIT 2:
just ordered some tronozymol
I pay a bit extra for 1st class post
£9 for 200g with shipping inc.

EDIT 3:
for topping up to maximise yeast alcohol production
I will wait till the SG is around 1.010 and top up to 1.020
repeat until the yeast die from alcohol poisoning :-)

I should end up with a nice sweet port style drink

EDIT 4:
sorry OP for hijacking your thread

+ 1 for the refractometer the image I posted before is from mine
you can measure the sugar content of any fruit or vegetable in %BRIX
and if it has the SG scale like mine you can easily measure must or wort
you may need a pestil and morta if you want to test root veg or hard fruit
check out some YouTube videos to see them in opperation
you only need a few drops of liquid to take a reading !

[Colly]

Thanks for your replies, people - but I don't honestly think I'm much the wiser. That, as Led Zep would say, is nobody's fault but mine, probably because a) I'm not asking the question properly, or b) I don't know what the bloody question is! And thanks for the refractometer advice, but I won't be buying one of those in the near future, because c) I'm skint, and d) any spare money I have is going towards BIAB, my next venture.
Let me quote a little bit from 'Scientific Winemaking' to try and show what I'm getting at. In most of the recipes, he advises to prepare the fruit, bring the bulk up to approximately 3/4 gallon, and then take a reading after 6 hours. Now, the 6 hours is obviously to allow most of the natural sugars to dissolve into the must, but how can he possibly expect to get an accurate reading from 3/4 gallon, of which a proportion is solids? Or am I missing something? Would I be better to add, say, 1.5 Kg of sugar as syrup, and bring my liquid addition up to 1 gallon, and then take a reading, which would be at least a little more accurate?
Which brings me to my next problem. I don't like having a gallon of liquid at the outset, much preferring to have a lesser quantity, so that when I strain off after primary fermentation I can fill my DJ to the shoulder and then top up once the ferment has died down a bit, reducing the risk of a Vesuvius explosion through the airlock. So (thinking aloud here), could I have 3/4 gallon of liquid in my initial must, take a reading, and work out from that how much sugar I need to add, maybe later on in the ferment?
Sorry for the rambling post that switches from metric to imperial at the drop of a baseball cap, and further apologies if it doesn't make any sense - I'm not sure if I even understand it. Feel free to tell me to bog off to another forum, or the underside of a rock, if you wish...

[fatbloke]

Rambling no problem......

If you start the ferment in a bucket, especially with fruit, the ferment has room to manoeuvre if it does decide to foam big time. The increase open surface area means its easy to tackle. Whereas if its in a DJ, even if only filled to the shoulders, it has a ready made jet to focus the aim of the foam toward the ceiling.

The foaming only tends to be an issue early in the ferment. Once its been going for a week or so the chances are reduced.

Your point about measurements and leaving the fruit in the syrup/water/whatever, may help with incorporating the cruit sugars but is by no means guaranteed. I'd do the syrup and fruit for 6 hours thing, or even 24 hours, because if you add pectolase once the batch is at room temp, it not only helps with possible pectin haze issues but also helps with juice/flavour/colour extraction and presumably fruit sugars too. Its more efficient and cost effective if added before fermentation. Can be done after but need a double dose.

[SleepyDave]

how can he possibly expect to get an accurate reading from 3/4 gallon, of which a proportion is solids?

I have had similar problems. I have been trying to follow Bill Smiths recipes which involves adding all the sugar and grape concentrate first and only adding the fruit when that has fermented for a few days.

I found this link very interesting http://wijnmaker.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Experiment. Lucs experiments with pectic enzyme show that most of the sugar will have been extracted from the fruit within 24 to 48 hours.

I use the book "Must" to estimate the amount of sugar to expect from my fruit. I then mash my fruit in a small amount of water, say 1 litre for a 1 gallon recipe, add pectic enzyme and leave for 24 to 48 hours. Then take the Sg of the must and add the fruit to it. I leave it an hour or so, for the alcohol to extract most of the remaining sugar, and take the the Sg again. From this I can calculate the amount of sugar extracted from the fruit (using a pearson square calculation). If the figure is very different from what was expected, I can make any necessary adjustments.

[lockwood1956]

Feel free to tell me to bog off to another forum, or the underside of a rock, if you wish...

That will never happen on this forum!

Give me a few mins to read the quewstion...

[lockwood1956]

the GV 4 yeast is tolerant to 21% so I plan on adding more sugar
each day as I punch down the crust and mix the pulp back into the must

Dont do that or you may end up with a stuck must.

let the SG drop to around 1.010 and sugar feed at that point

That grape juice SG will be around 1.060

but for more detail see here
http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Shelv...s_In_Asda.html

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Shelv..._In_tesco.html

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Shelv...ainsburys.html

working from 5 gallons at SG 1.110
and approximating 500g per 1% ABV
I think I will need another 2 or 3 kilo of sugar
added during the fermentation to get anywhere near 20%

The yeast you have will go to a high gravity, but I wouldn't advise starting too high, as the yeast may suffer from Osmotic shock, I finfd it is best to start lower 1.080 - 1.090 and sugar feed once it is down to lower SG (I like to go to 1.010 and feed back to 1.030 several times till desired result)

To estimate the sugar content of a must you can use the table here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/sugarandacid.pdf

I hope that helps and also answers your questions Colly

regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

You might want to consider addition of grape juice to lower the acidity by dilution?

it wouls also lower the SG which (in my opinion) is a little high a start gravity

hope that helps

regards
bob