differences between beer & wine production

[Gurgeh]

I'm primarily a beer brewer - spend a lot of time on 'Jims beer kit' forum.

unbeknown to that forum though, I have 24 vines all having their 2nd birthday today, so as they're now ready to provide a small crop this autumn I have to get to grips with some info that I can't quite get out of my Alan Rowe book or the various docs in this forums primer.

I'll be producing two wines, one from 15 Regent (red - skin & flesh) & one from 9 Phoenix (white) vines.

so if any of you folk could spare me the time I have some questions:

• Do I understand correctly that I am to ferment the red on the pulp but not the white? At what point do i press (I have a press) or otherwise rack the ferment off the pulp - oxidation being another pertinent concern...
  
  
• What would be the best yeasts to use for each, do I pitch directly from sachet/vial or should I sort out a starter first (I am competent at this with beer yeasts)?
  
  
• From what I understand, Aeration even at t=0 oxidises a must (red or white). how does the yeast get enough oxygen to fission without the must oxidising?

thanks

[lockwood1956]

I'm primarily a beer brewer - spend a lot of time on 'Jim's beer kit' forum.

unbeknown to that forum though, I have 24 vines all having their 2nd birthday today, so as they're now ready to provide a small crop this autumn I have to get to grips with some info that I can't quite get out of my Alan Rowe book or the various docs in this forums primer.

You really should be waiting till year three to ensure they are going to be healthy, but hey, if they have grown well, and you only take a very small crop ()thin the bunches out) then off we go.......

I'll be producing two wines, one from 15 Regent (red - skin & flesh) & one from 9 Phoenix (white) vines.

Do I understand correctly that I am to ferment the red on the pulp but not the white? At what point do i press (I have a press) or otherwise rack the ferment off the pulp - oxidation being another pertinent concern...

see here for Red fermentation

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2046

and here for whites

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2047

dont be paranoid about oxidation till you move to the secondary phase of fermentation (SG below 1.010) as the CO2 sitting on top of the must will provide adequate protection against this. We are lucky that wine doesn't spoil as easily as beer does...

What would be the best yeasts to use for each, do I pitch directly from sachet/vial or should I sort out a starter first (I am competent at this with beer yeasts)?

Lalvin D47 for the whites and RC212 for the reds...although Lalvin 71B-1122 will work perfectly for both, producing highly fruity aromatic wines, and will help if the fruit isn't perfectly ripe (could be an issue here in the UK)

I have supplies of the Lalvin 71B-1122 if you want some (PM me)

From what I understand, Aeration even at t=0 oxidises a must (red or white). how does the yeast get enough oxygen to fission without the must oxidising?

no not at all, you need to be careful in the latter stages is all ...read above links



and further information available here....

http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/content.php?category=Winemaking

read chapters 3 and 4 you will be on the right track..


oh and of course...ask questions here..


we are importing Italian and Spanish grapes again this year if you would like some..

see here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1352

hope this helps
regards
Bob

thanks [/quote]

[Gurgeh]

You really should be waiting till year three to ensure they are going to be healthy, but hey, if they have grown well, and you only take a very small crop ()thin the bunches out) then off we go.......

This is their third year of growth, 2nd birthday from planting them - but even then, they are most definitely ready to crop

I'll just take 6 bunches per vine this year however.

Thanks for your info - all printed out to read somewhere more comfortable

Pete

[lockwood1956]

This is their third year of growth, 2nd birthday from planting them - but even then, they are most definitely ready to crop

DOH!


of course ....silly me, if this is their second birthday it must be their third year...what a dummy I am

The Imported grapes are around £7.50 for a 20lb box, and it looks like we will be getting Grenache from Spain, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon , Trebbiano, Sangiovese, and Cilieguilio from Italy
and Nero D'avola from Sicily ....and an unidentified white grape (tasty tho)

[Gurgeh]

right - read all that and feeling much more about the differences from beermaking and the differences between red & white.

I use a shredder to turn apples into pommace for cider making - I wonder if that would be satisfactory for crushing my grapes???

red wine: so this cold maceration - do the ice bombs have a 'contact' effect, or could i just put the crushed grapes in my fermenting fridge and temp control to <50F (can achieve an opitimum temp if there is one)

white wine: how settled will the solids be, 24hrs after presssing? just thinking about the most efficient dimensions of the vessel this will happen in...

MLF? my understanding is that this causes 'spritzig' and is favourable in white wines - so you advocate doing it in a red wine and then presumably degassing to remove the spritzig (so just a method for removing malic acid...?)

biolees?

how do i measure TA?

thanks

[lockwood1956]

right - read all that and feeling much more about the differences from beer making and the differences between red & white.

RESULT!

I use a shredder to turn apples into pommace for cider making - I wonder if that would be satisfactory for crushing my grapes???

No...
You may bust open the seeds using a shredder, so avoid this if possible it will make for a harsh wine.....because you are not doing a big batch, squish them by hand...or better still...the traditional way...(shoes and socks off) the ferment will take care of any nasties.

red wine: so this cold maceration - do the ice bombs have a 'contact' effect, or could i just put the crushed grapes in my fermenting fridge and temp control to <50F (can achieve an optimum temp if there is one)

Fantastic....controlling the temp is what it is about....we are preventing fermentation from occurring for a few days so we can maximise skin contact time. Add some pectolase or other colour extracting enzyme (Rohapect is another good one) during this cold soak.

white wine: how settled will the solids be, 24hrs after pressing? just thinking about the most efficient dimensions of the vessel this will happen in...

Not totally settled, but enough to rack the juice off and start ferment, you dont want extended contact with the solids in a white wine

MLF? my understanding is that this causes 'spritzig' and is favourable in white wines - so you advocate doing it in a red wine and then presumably degassing to remove the spritzig (so just a method for removing malic acid...?)

You wouldn't put a white wine through MLF normally, it imparts a buttery taste, it is used in some chardonnay....

MLF in the bottle causes spritzig, but in fermenter it is fine, it converts malic acid to the softer more round lactic acid, so it smooths your wine out, and makes it more stable. so it is a method of metabolising the acid to something else....not removal
yes you would degas afterwards.

see here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2015

biolees?

not readily available in the UK, it is an additive that replicates sur lie (stirring the very fine lees back into the wine)
I buy it from Dave at St Louis beer and wine...you will need to pay VAT and duty on it, so prepare for it to be twice the price listed on his website, he is a great guy and will ship to the UK

his website

https://wineandbeermaking.com/store/winemaking-supplies/additives-nutrients/nutrients/biolees/prod_1435.html

how do i measure TA?

thanks

see here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2005

after about post No 4 it deals with UK acid test kits

hope all of this helps





and welcome to the crazy world of winemaking..........although we have to worry less about stuff than the beer guys


regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

Just a further thought....how are you deciding when to harvest?

do you have a refractometer to measure Brix? (great tool, sold cheapish on ebay)

You know to wait till the seeds go brown yes?

[lockwood1956]

Oh

and if you are ordering from Dave try some of the Tancor Grand Cru too

https://wineandbeermaking.com/store/winemaking-supplies/additives-nutrients/tannins/tan-cor-grand-cru/prod_86.html

Although if you get involved in the great grape adventure you could meet up with us at potters bar and ill let you have some of each...



Did you read the grapefest thread?

that would be a great way to get into it before your harvest, you are most welcome to come OOP north and join in the fun (Sat 13th Sept 2008) stay overnight, we will be processing about a ton of grapes.

[Gurgeh]

crikey!

So all that has been absorbed now...

Tell me more about the potters bar thing - I'm up for that basically - give me an opportunity to meet some of you folk and be able to compare my first harvest with a pro-grown harvest, whilst keeping as much else as possible constant.

I'll PM you Bob!

Pete

[lockwood1956]

No probs matey, you are welcome to join us on the grapes, will be more details nearer the time, but its likely to be Sept 12th pick grapes up, process them on Sept 13th