Glass v plastic

[Original Mac]

Since food grade plastic is acceptable for fermentation and also for bottling beer I was wondering about its use for ageing and bottling wine. Since 5 litre water bottles are readily available has anyone used these for bulk storage and if so did you have any problems? Also for bottling I use 1 litre mixer bottles to supplement my kegs and used them to bottle my first wine #1 (four full bottles and I had to drink the remaining half litre!) These quickly disappeared (as planned) over a couple of barbies but I was really impressed at the improvement in just a couple of weeks. The question is would it affect the quality of the wine if kept in plastic for a long time (ie over six months). Finally if glass is the only way to go, what do you think of this idea? When I first started winemaking (more years ago than I care to remember) I would use four full size and four half size bottles per gallon. Sampling the half bottles over the months until it was just right. However I cannot seem to find half size wine bottles any more so I thought about using 250/300ml beer bottles and sealing with crown caps. Thoughts and suggestions most welcome.

[medpretzel]

First and foremost, glass has the advantage that it easily is cleaned when reusing. There are no scratches that ensue, and it cannot stain.

Having said that, plastic can (even some food-grade plastics).

I don't really think, if the plastic is food-grade, it can impart a taste or affect the quality of the wine.

Beer bottles with crown caps are certainly a good possibility for smaller bottles.

So, if you seal the plastic bottles up correctly, there should be no problem using them once. I probably wouldn't re-use them, though.

Hope this helps,

M.

[Pyrosfx]

They loose out to glass big time for long term storage as the PET allows oxygen diffusion , I think most modern soda bottles have an extra barrier layer, but the CO2 in soda still leaches out over time. (flat in a year I think) Also the barrier is degraded when its washed in hot water or exposed to high temps.

Basically PET is a gas permeable membrane, a rubber bung in a demijohn is a far better seal from the atmosphere.

So I'd say short term only for plastics.

[Ian]

Anything with a short turn-over, six months or less, I'm okay with plastic.

Over that, glass all the time.

[fatbloke]

There is also the health issue.......

The higher the level of alcohol, the greater the possibility that the plasticisers will leach into the product.

Most beers, ciders etc that are marketed and sold, with about 12 months or so on the code, but they're also upto about 8% ABV max.

Yes, there is the "wine in a box" but I'm thinking that the plastics used in the internal bags are of a type that is less corroded by the presence of higher levels of alcohol.

Even the "weakest" of wines tends to be about 12 % plus....

So I'd guess that apart from the gas permeable issues with PET and polycarbonate (plus the retention of odour and staining with polycarbonate as well), it's entirely up to you what you want to store your wines in.

I'd guess that it's safe to say that it's not a recommended practice....

regards

jtfb

[rjb222]

In the interest of safety (IE not having one break and cut a customer) I use plastic almost exclusively in my BOP. I do not bulk age here though. Glass is a way better fermenter fin my mind as it is easy to clean and sanitize. It impervious to flavoring and staining. The only real drawbacks to this would be heat, weight and fragility.The glass used in carboys is not heat treated so cold water and cool temperatures are important other wise you run the risk of a crack forming from expansion and contraction.Keeping a wine in a glass fermenter to age is the best way to do that. Oxidization could happen from plastic if you were to keep your wine in there as previously mentioned past six months.The Pet fermenter designed by better bottle will not leach chemicals as they are not present in the pet plastic that is used to make these fermenters. The opaque plastic fermenters also do not contain the leaching chemicals but these transfer more oxygen through the walls than pet does so the time it takes to oxidize the product would be shorter if these are used.

[hedgerow]

sorry but i am a glass man when it comes to storage over 3 months or more

[lyntom54]

I agree glass is better than Plastic for long term keeping.

[gwing]

Mixed feelings

I tried the 5G PET fermenters for last year for 3-6 month storage before finalling transferring to glass. The wine tastes great but I have mixed feelings about the PET fermenters themselves.

Plus points:
a) They are half the price of glass
b) Easier to obtain mail order
c) Less fragile and safer. Actually, indestrucible might be a better description.
d) Lighter

Open to debate:
a) They are *slightly* gas permeable. Some folks consider this bad but wooden casks are touted as being the best thing for red wines precisely because they allow some constant small gas exchange rather than just the massive air contact at racking times. So we can't have it both ways - by this argument the PET containers should be better.

Downside:
a) Flexible. When I lift them the container flexes, interior volume changes and air is sucked in and out through the airlock - hopefully not giving the wine a nice dose of the sulphite water! I haven't seen one but I think you can get a carboy handle for these which may improve thingts. Being fair it is pretty essential to use carboy handles for large glass fermenters as well.
b) Cleaning. Yuch. I am still looking at the stains at the bottom of my fermenters from last years EB abd BB which have survived concentrated overnight soaking with VWP and I'm wondering if I want to bother with them again or go entirely to glass.

[Duffbeer]

Plastic, plastic, plastic, have had stuff stored 2 years or more without any ill effects. Easier to handle with less chance of breakage, unfortunately I do believe our dislike to plastic is from some non food grade plastic experiences. The're allreet !!!

[grandmawoods]

I use plastic. I clean them with denture cleaning tablets as well as soapy water before sanitizing. Due to arthritis, I don't think I could lift a glass dj that was full so my options are limited. For the back flow upon lifting, I set my bottles in buckets or milk crates before filling, rather than lifting the bottle itself.

[james]

I use glass for anything that involves storage once fermentation is complete. Glass bottles always.

However, this discussion has reminded me of something I heard regarding plastic cider bottles. Apparently, they're coated with a molecular coating of something on the inside of the PET bottle that stops oxygen getting through. This is different to other PET bottles (standard fizzy drink bottles) becuase cider suffers badly from oxidation on supermarket shelves.
So maybe if you're thinking of using plastic use the big cider bottles.

Having said this, I've just done a search and cant find anything on the internet to substantiate my story, so maybe I'm totally wrong and I imagined it....

[lockwood1956]

(QUESTION!!!, having previewed this post![caution being the better part of valour!], I had used a "smiley" available on this site to indicate shaking the bottle, or as near as i could find, it was a sort of sickly yellow/green, on "previewing" I saw this," ****", if the smileys are going to be edited, why are they there?,

the smilies are not edited, the only time anything is editited is if the swear filter picks it up, and it happens automatically

I though it was a bit risque! but in the context of use with a qualifier following I thought that my meaning would be quite clear, oh well, I suppose we all know the words and gestures but don't need to use them even if we could.

If it seems a bit risque, then you shouldn't be using it in the first place, context is very easily lost with the written word, and so that is why we have a swear filter. This has been explained to you on several occasions now, and you have received warnings about it, yet you still persist.

Please be good enough to observe the rules of the establishment, this is a wine making forum, frequented by all walks of life, some of whom find the words blocked by the swear filter offensive, so remember this is not a "lads" club where you can say and do whatever you want. your posts are appearing in living rooms across the globe, so please behave accordingly.

or you could continue on your present course and end up not being able to post at all.


I have to tell you I am growing tired of constantly having to explain this.

[lockwood1956]

ahhhhhh

I see the point now.....

there was a rogue smilie, that until Karl pointed it out to me today, I didn't know existed, I thought you had tried deliberately to post something risque i.e. the written word, so it would seem that I have misunderstood you.

I stand corrected, please accept my apologies for not understanding what you were saying in previous post.

(I think this time I owe YOU a beer?)

regards
Bob

[wurzel]

ahhhhhh

I see the point now.....

there was a rogue smilie, that until Karl pointed it out to me today, I didn't know existed, I thought you had tried deliberately to post something risque i.e. the written word, so it would seem that I have misunderstood you.

I stand corrected, please accept my apologies for not understanding what you were saying in previous post.

(I think this time I owe YOU a beer?)

regards
Bob

Well said Bob