Malo

[bzac]

When is the best time for the MLF culture to be added for REDS?

Got all the tech instructions, but for red nobody mentions - before or after pressing ? I think before, BUT if I add it now, in two days I will be pressing ? And that will remove 15% volume (skins).

Should I wait until after pressing ?

I add mine after pressing and racking off of the gross lees.

I like the wine to be dry to reduce the chance of off products developing such as VA and also reduce the risk of a stuck alcoholic ferment which can happen if mlb is added before the wine is dry (yes I've had this happen ) . also if you add it before pressing the big wack of O2 the mlb wil be exposed to durring the press can stun the mlb and even result in a stuck mlf (had that happen too)

so I press , settle and rack off gross lees and then innoculate and add optimalo while the wine is resting on its fine lees in tanks and carboys . when mlf is done I rack off the fine lees and into a barrel and sulfite.

for pinot noir , I settle off the fine lees and go to barrel then innoculate , this gives the pinot some complexity and also preserves the colour of pinot , in bolder wines there is no benifit to this delayed mlf but in pinot it makes a difference.

[lockwood1956]

Well I attended a wineskills course (UK wine industry training organisation) and according to hentie sweigers (course tutor) they add at the start

see here for more info

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4350

[bzac]

Fare enough , ask 5 winemakers get 5 answers , I attended a workshop with Chick Brennan from UC Davis , alison Crowe and 2 Napa winemakers and they were all unanamous that adding mlb before the wine was dry was not some thing they would do as the risks outweigh the benifit.


the main driver for innoculating early is to get lt over with faster freeing up tanks . there is no quality benifit , but there are risks , VA , Stuck ferments

since we don't have the same driver to turn tanks over as our commercial friends do , why take the risk?

Individual winemakers make their own choices but they should be fully aware of the risks and potential outcomes of those choices

[lockwood1956]

Absolutely Zac, in fact if you ask 5 winemakers you will likely get at least 10 opinions

I was unconvinced by the argument for innoculting from the start, but promised myself I would try it, finally this year did it on one batch, i did staged nutrient additions though, as i was paranoid about it.....so far....so good. not tested for completion of MLF yet though.

I always say every year that i will allow the wild yeasties to do the first part of fermentation, but i always bottle out and add a commercial yeast.

regards
Bob

[NorthernWiner]

The only thing I'll add is that when working with acidic grapes, early malo inoculation is often necessary. If you inoculate after fermentation is complete, the low pH in concert with alcohol can cause problems with MLF. By inoculating before too much alcohol produced (and when temperatures are more conducive to LAB activity) you can hedge your bet.

California winemakers don't usually have to deal with low pH, so it usually works to their benefit to inoculate after alcoholic fermentation is complete.

[bzac]

True , although when faced with high acid I'd use maurvin B or 71 B yeast to drop the acid and still proceed with a post pressing mlf.

if that didn't get it the ph up enough , I'd cold stabilise then innoculate using am active mlf starter .

anything to avoid VA or a stuck ferment.

Just never going to convince me , innoculating before dry is the best way to go ,
I never want to face a concurent ferment with a stuck AF again.

[NorthernWiner]

Well...

I've probably done somewhere around 2 dozen or so co-fermentations myself. All of this before some California winemaker told me that it was a bad idea (of course, like others, he admits he has never tried it himself). I realize that alone doesn't make me an expert, but it does make me comfortable with the process and, at the same time, skeptical of some of the claims.

It also probably doesn't hurt that there have been studies conducted by Lallemand (Krieger), Cornell University, WSU (Beelman/Edwards) and others that have also concluded that the risks might be over-hyped.

Here's one such study that (I believe) was done in Ontario. A few quotes:

"Inoculating grape musts with wine yeast and lactic acid bacteria (LAB) concurrently in order to induce simultaneous alcoholic fermentation (AF) and malolactic fermentation (MLF) can be an efficient alternative to overcome potential inhibition of LAB in wines because of high ethanol concentrations and reduced nutrient content."

"Sensory evaluation was done after 12 months of storage. The current study could not confirm a negative impact of simultaneous AF/MLF on fermentation success and kinetics or on final wine parameters. While acetic acid concentrations were slightly increased in wines after simultaneous AF/MLF, the differences were of neither practical nor legal significance. No statistically significant differences were found with regard to the final values of pH or total acidity and the concentrations of ethanol, acetaldehyde, glycerol, citric and lactic acids, and the nitrogen compounds arginine, ammonia, urea, citrulline, and ornithine. Sensory evaluation by a semiexpert panel confirmed the similarity of the wines."

"In contrast to earlier studies, the current work has found no evidence of a negative impact of simultaneous AF/MLF on fermentation success and kinetics or on final wine parameters. Instead, several aspects suggest a microbiological and technological advantage of applying this fermentation protocol."

I'll admit that I wouldn't do this if using any bayanus yeast strains (e.g. Prise de Mousse, Epernay, EC-1118), as these tend to produce elevated levels of sulphur dioxide. I'd also steer clear of other yeast strains with a competitive (aka "killer") nature.

But I have done it using 71B, AMH, BDX, and BM45 yeasts a number of times without any issue whatsoever, including stuck ferments. And if you can pick up elevated levels of VA or acetaldehyde on any of them, I'll eat my shoes.

[bzac]

fair enough , I have also done it both ways many times .
And a couple of those times had problems with innoculating pre dry .

it all comes back to a winemakers choices , and each of those choices has risks , you just need to now what they are , and what to do if one pops up.

part of my delayed mlf also is a timing thing , I innoculate in novemeber , it finnishes in early january .

by then I'm ready to bottle and free up my barrels , I do this mid january , and rack the new wine into sulfited barrels , mlf done and leaving the fine lees behind.