Problem or not ? What's next (winter mead)?

[fatbloke]

TA is titrateable acid, the amount of acid available to you as the winemaker. Adjusting the acid is important in production of quality wines, and will have a remarkable effect on the finished wine

I've not seen a pen meter for TA (doesnt mean they aren't available, but I'm as sure as I can be that they aren't) It's likely a PH meter you have seen, PH and TA are closely linked but they are a different thing.

An Acid (TA) test kit can be had from your local home brew store (you will likely have to order it) for between £5 and £6 and you can use the PH meter to detect the titration point (where the colour of the test sample changes) using a PH meter, it takes a little practise to get it right, but it can be done. Jut be careful getting into PH...it will likely mess with your mind for a while. The test kits available in the UK are pretty good for seeing the colour change, the US and Canadians ones (titrets) are not so good, so those boys use their PH meters to detect the titration point (when PH reaches 8.2 the titration is complete)

i would invest in the (Ritchie's) acid test kit, and play with that first.

to add to the confusion, US and Canadian (and UK Professional test kits) measure the acid expressed as Tartaric. French and hobby UK test kits express acid as sulphuric, so you need to know which scale is being used, but conversion chart here, which will also give you the acidity levels reqd for wines
see page 2

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/TAtestsheet.pdf

Info on using PH meter to determine titration point here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/downloads/PHmetertotestTA.pdf

see here on tutorial on how to use acid test kit
http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=886

Also...

see here for definitions for competition wines (including mead) with ideal alcohol and acidity definitions

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1056

might help to look at it before setting out to make a wine, determine what sort of wine you are trying to make, and then adjusting everything accordingly. Gives you total control over the process, and is the only way to consistently produce good (or even great) wines.

cheers for that Bob, using test kits is straight forward - it's just the ones I use for my fish tank sometimes, are very narrow in spectrum - cos of the hard water round here I use the one that's for higher pH reading - it doesn't offer levels down low enough for measuring wine (ha! good thing as I prefer pickled herring and mackerel - rather than gold and angel fish ).

The pH meter I've seen is about £18 so won't exactly break the bank - plus it works from 0 to 14 and has temperature adjustment. It'll probably suit me fine (in theory).

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Accuracy is the big thing, you can buy cheaper end PH meters but you really need accuracy to 0.1 as a minimum..0.01 is better but then you are paying bigger money.

Oh and don't confuse resolution with accuracy, they will likely all have resolution to 0.01 but its the accuracy figure you are looking for.

But buying from aquatic suppliers will give you better value, just remember you need accuracy!

regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

For example this one is £17.63

http://www.digital-meters.com/Pen_Type_pH_Meter_PH03I-p-16444.html

resolution to 0.01 accuracy to 0.2


this one however is £34.99

http://www.digital-meters.com/Tropical_and_Marine_Aquarium_pH_Meter__Tecpel_PH703-p-16163.html

resolution still at 0.01, but accuracy to 0.02

so although its twice the price, its ten times the meter


Don't forget calibration solutions too, you will need PH 7 and PH 4 calibrating solutions, don't bother with PH 10, and if you only calibrate with one solution, get PH 4, as its closer to the range we will be using. It needs to be calibrated before you use it (every time)

[fatbloke]

Ha ha! Those were the two I was looking at. How bizarre.

Yes, I can see why the dearer meter would be better/more accurate, but (using the fish example) I only test the water to the nearest tenth i.e. one decimal point. Mainly because they're fresh water tropical (with a natural tolerance).

Of course, if I was keeping marine tropical fish, then maybe I'd be more picky about it.

Hence I was wondering what the necessity of measuring to 2 decimal points might be ?

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Accuracy!

you need accuracy, if you dont have it you will be screwed

if you want to make good (great) wine then get an accurate meter, otherwise you are peeing in the wind


wine at 3.0 will still undergo MLF at 2.9 it wont.........

so you need the best accuracy you can afford.


Also if anyone is thinking of getting into PH of wine/mead....you need to know what you are doing......for if you mess with it randomly...you are doomed, lots of study on how it works is reqd.
START HERE

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=891

TA is easily adjusted PH is not

regards
bob

[StockeyDAW]

Yep accuracy very important otherwise why not just the paper. I am very fond of my pH meter and the good old Santa has another better one going through custom for me. It takes you to the next level and is like a third hand to me.

Remember the maintenance is important with these instruments - if they are not looked after they will tend to break down often. You must use the correct storage solution, keep the probe clean and insure that the buffers an chemicals for TA are current and up to date - depending on your storage conditions they may only last 6 months and or 1 year. I find that the tablets for pH4 and pH7 buffers in that you make your own 100 ml works fine for me. John once you have one of these you will wonder how you made out without them before. They are great for use just before pitching the yeast and after the alcohol fermentation is complete. A must for mead to get the pH correct before starting fermentation. Cheers Daw --my opinion

[fatbloke]

Accuracy!

you need accuracy, if you dont have it you will be screwed

if you want to make good (great) wine then get an accurate meter, otherwise you are peeing in the wind


wine at 3.0 will still undergo MLF at 2.9 it wont.........

so you need the best accuracy you can afford.


Also if anyone is thinking of getting into PH of wine/mead....you need to know what you are doing......for if you mess with it randomly...you are doomed, lots of study on how it works is reqd.
START HERE

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=891

TA is easily adjusted PH is not

regards
bob

Yep accuracy very important otherwise why not just the paper. I am very fond of my pH meter and the good old Santa has another better one going through custom for me. It takes you to the next level and is like a third hand to me.

Remember the maintenance is important with these instruments - if they are not looked after they will tend to break down often. You must use the correct storage solution, keep the probe clean and insure that the buffers an chemicals for TA are current and up to date - depending on your storage conditions they may only last 6 months and or 1 year. I find that the tablets for pH4 and pH7 buffers in that you make your own 100 ml works fine for me. John once you have one of these you will wonder how you made out without them before. They are great for use just before pitching the yeast and after the alcohol fermentation is complete. A must for mead to get the pH correct before starting fermentation. Cheers Daw --my opinion

Ok, it looks like I'll have to get the dearer one of the two then.

I'll have another look, I didn't see any mention of "storage solution/liquid" only the buffering solutions.

I'll report back when I've had a read.

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

It does though look like they are around 1/2 the price charged by home brew stores when you buy them from aquarium shops!

[fatbloke]

Well, that's the pH meter ordered (the one that Bob suggested).

It comes with some pH7 buffer liquid so I've ordered some pH4 buffer liquid as well.

I'm gonna nip down the HBS to see if he keeps TA test kits (presuming he does), as I want some other bits as well.

Then I can take it from there.

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

Welcome to the crazy world of PH and Acid testing


double and triple check everything (particularly calculations on acid adjustment)

post your calcs and let some ofd the experinced bods check them for you (i've messed up before) and dont test acid under the influence

[StockeyDAW]

Welcome to the crazy world of PH and Acid testing


double and triple check everything (particularly calculations on acid adjustment)

post your calcs and let some ofd the experinced bods check them for you (i've messed up before) and dont test acid under the influence

Cheers Bob I sure do agree with that. Takes a little getting used to but it is sure worth it.

FB you can do the acid testing with the pH meter also - no need for an acid testing kit - once you get on to the pH meter it will just sit as a relic on one of you shelves - I have two doing that right now. Try to pick up some storage solution. Also try to get a hold of the pH tablets if you can both 4 and 7 pH, with these you can make your own pH buffer solutions at the time you want. Trouble with the already prepared ones they deteriorate in 6 months to a year. You will also need so distilled water to rinse the pH probe between readings. Cheers I have two pH meters now just a new one better than the first one as xmas gift this year - now I won't be down because of the pH meter, I plan to keep them both in good operating condition. Cheers DAW

[StockeyDAW]

Cheers Bob I sure do agree with that. Takes a little getting used to but it is sure worth it.

FB you can do the acid testing with the pH meter also - no need for an acid testing kit - once you get on to the pH meter it will just sit as a relic on one of you shelves - I have two doing that right now. Try to pick up some storage solution. Also try to get a hold of the pH tablets if you can both 4 and 7 pH, with these you can make your own pH buffer solutions at the time you want. Trouble with the already prepared ones they deteriorate in 6 months to a year. You will also need so distilled water to rinse the pH probe between readings. Cheers I have two pH meters now just a new one better than the first one as xmas gift this year - now I won't be down because of the pH meter, I plan to keep them both in good operating condition. Cheers DAW

Sorry all -- Just another couple of points that you will need for the acid testing -- You will nee some Sodium Hydroxide (this stuff is corrosive) so be careful with it. I suggest the .2N solution is the one you should look for - less calculations but if you have to the .1N will work but you will have to use twice as much to get the 8.2 pH meter reading. Another suggestion keep all the buffers, tablets and the Sodium Hydroxide in the fridge it will all last longer- Just remember to take it out to get to room temperature before using it. DAW

[fatbloke]

---%<---

FB you can do the acid testing with the pH meter also - no need for an acid testing kit - once you get on to the pH meter it will just sit as a relic on one of you shelves - I have two doing that right now. Try to pick up some storage solution. Also try to get a hold of the pH tablets if you can both 4 and 7 pH, with these you can make your own pH buffer solutions at the time you want. Trouble with the already prepared ones they deteriorate in 6 months to a year. You will also need so distilled water to rinse the pH probe between readings. Cheers I have two pH meters now just a new one better than the first one as xmas gift this year - now I won't be down because of the pH meter, I plan to keep them both in good operating condition. Cheers DAW

Well the pH testmeter turned up in the week - it came with 7pH buffer solution, so I also ordered a bottle of 4pH solution (as recommended here). I've got as far as calibrating it with the 7pH buffer, but am still a little unsure about what I'd been needing/using the 4pH buffer for.

Sorry all -- Just another couple of points that you will need for the acid testing -- You will nee some Sodium Hydroxide (this stuff is corrosive) so be careful with it. I suggest the .2N solution is the one you should look for - less calculations but if you have to the .1N will work but you will have to use twice as much to get the 8.2 pH meter reading. Another suggestion keep all the buffers, tablets and the Sodium Hydroxide in the fridge it will all last longer- Just remember to take it out to get to room temperature before using it. DAW

Ok, I can see that tracking down some tablets for making newer solution would be wise - tablets often have greater shelf life.

Keeping them in the fridge, yup I can also see the wisdom of that.

What/why might I need Sodium Hydroxide for ???

What is the desirable pH that I'd be looking for (I spoke to the bloke in the HBS about TA kits, he said that if I've got a pH tester I wouldn't need one, if it's (in this case, my winter mead recip') too low in acidity to correct it with tartaric acid - though I don't recall what it was that he suggested I do if it turned out to be too alkali) ?????

I had a quick look, but couldn't find where there might be a tutorial/advice sheet about pH acid testing (if there is one, it's probably in front of my nose - hence I can't see it ). Does anyone have a link ?

regards

JtFB

[Duffbeer]

Here ya go John, PH testing, it 's in general winemaking under tutorials.

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=891

[fatbloke]

Here ya go John, PH testing, it 's in general winemaking under tutorials.

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=891

Cheers DB, I seem to recall seeing reference to it somewhere, but for the life of me couldn't think where.

I'm off to give it a good reading to.

TVM

regards

JtFB