Clarification of advice/ideas/suggestions/techniques

[fatbloke]

Ok, so over this weekend, I've made a batch of mead with heather honey.

One of the things I want to clarify, is the answer to what might be a good idea to do if a problem is encountered.

So, the recipe I was using, was the one in the recipes section "Modern" Mead.

I'd opted for "sweet" so planned to use 4lb of honey to the gallon.

From previous attempts, I know that making a must with 4lb of honey can result in quite a high starting gravity, IRO 1130 to 1140.

Some of the WAH contributors would frown at that, in the belief or with the suggestion that you shouldn't start a ferment much above 1090 (ish).

But, having looked around the net, it does seem quite a common practice for mead makers to start meads at that level - though I understand it can sometimes be problematic.

So, what's best to do ?

Is it likely to better, especially for the newer mead makers to aim for a lower gravity, but to remember that depending on the yeast and it's alcohol tolerance, that the ferment can be "fed" with more honey later on i.e. further through the ferment process ?

Or to suggest that it's probably a non-issue to follow a recipe "blindly" ? and make the ingredient quantities exact ?

Then there's the main problem I encountered with this batch. One of pH values.

As most here will already know, with pH values, the lower the number the more acid, the higher the number the more alkali. Which is fine.

My problem arose, because you will find if you look around the net, that on average, honey seems to be about 4.0 to 4.5 pH, but as with any natural substance, those values can vary quite wildly.

In my case, I'd mixed the honey, water, tea and yeast nutrient. I wanted to check the pH level before adding any acid, and while I wouldn't have been surprised to find a reading of between 4.0 to 5.0 somewhere, I was completely taken aback to get a measurement of 6.36 - damn near neutral (neutral being 7.0).

Now this also highlights one of the controversies of mead making particularly. The addition of acid to a must.

It seems that there are 2 schools of thought, adding acid to a must to achieve a certain pH value before pitching yeast, or not adding any acid until the wine has finished fermenting and adding the acid to taste, or possibly to a certain pH value.

Now in my case, I was hoping that the must would have had a pH low enough to not add the acid until after the ferment, but with a reading of 6.36, to the best of my understanding, I could easily expect fermentation problems.

So initially, I just added the 1 teaspoon of citric acid recommended in the recipe. That only seemed to drop the pH by a small amount.

It did stress me out some, as I was at a loss, as to what I should be doing.

To start with, most of the available info mentions the issue of increasing a pH value if it's too low i.e. adding Calcium Carbonate, but there seems very little info about what to do if it's too high.

Of course, there is the obvious one of adding more acid, but it seemed to me, that in this case I'd need to add rather a lot.

So what's right ?

In this instance, I've used some of the guidance/advice I've received from both forums and from "normal" websites/documents that I found and read. The result being that instead of adding just the 1 tsp of citric acid, I have a total of 4 tsps of acid in the batch, 2 of citric and 2 of tartaric.

The result of this action has been to drop the pH value of the must down to 4.29, which as I currently understand things, is OK.

The issue here, being that of the 2 schools of thought mentioned above, one says that you should start a must/batch/ferment at a certain value, whereas the other says that yeast will do it's job ok right up to just the acid side of neutral (IRO 5.0 to 6.0 or so).

So which is the better suggestion for the new mead maker ?

I for one, certainly don't know. Whether you end up with a better taste/flavour without acid during ferment or not ?

Of course, honey is no different from other flavouring type country wine ingredients inasfaras it's nominally already acid. Plus there are quite a number of other factors that affect taste/flavour/acidity levels/sweetness etc etc, but that's not what I'm trying to clarify.

It's trying to establish a "best practice" for a new mead maker.

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and any posted suggestions, could you be kind enough to explain why you think it best to do something a certain way, rather than just "because that's how I do it" - if possible of course. I'm fully aware that there's many different levels of knowledge here at WAH, I'm just trying to put "it" into one place and/or clear up some of the potential confusion that can surround mead making (and no, I don't "do" rocket science either, I leave that to my brother ).

[lockwood1956]

Hi John

starting gravity first...

I would always opt for a lower starting gravity, and then add more sugars (in this case in the form of honey) as the ferment progressed.

my thinking for doing it this way is this, the yeast are less stressed by lower sugar levels, and so ferment would be smooth and gathering speed as it went, I would then attend to nutrient levels when adding more sugars. You will succumb to less stuck fernments this way too. (Always prepare a yeast starter too, using some of the must, some citric acid,(1/8 tsp) some sugar, (1/8 tsp) and a good yeast nutrient...add 3mg tablet of vit B1 per gallon if your nutrient doesnt contain it...read the label)


PH values
(didn't I tell you this would open a can of worms for you?)

I cannot speak about mead for I dont make much of it.

however, in Winemaking terms, having the PH lower through acid additions will give the wine a more fruit forward taste, this is the way a lot of the Australian winemakers do it, hence Australian Shiraz slaps you with red and black fruit flavours....much more so than European Syrah...(same grape)

So Australian winemakers adjust to a specific PH and worry about the acid later. (Australia produces 8% of the worlds wine....but a staggering 60% of the technical papers on how to do it)

I made a merlot in 2006 in this style and it is a veritable fruit bomb.

Use tartaric acid for such additions as it is easier to get rid of by cold stabilisation.


However this style may not suit you, so the only way to really find out, is to split a batch, adjust one to a specific PH value, and leave the other Au Naturale....

see how they suit you afterwards, after all It's your wine/mead and you have to like drinking it


hope trhis helps
regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

Or to suggest that it's probably a non-issue to follow a recipe "blindly" ? and make the ingredient quantities exact ?

No NEVER!

your hydrometer is your friend!

[StockeyDAW]

FB - Sorry no opinions from this end. You have been making your own decisions and not going along with any of our opinions anyway so why should I express any opinions of which you have no intention of using them anyway? Cheers Daw

[medpretzel]

Ok, so over this weekend, I've made a batch of mead with heather honey.

One of the things I want to clarify, is the answer to what might be a good idea to do if a problem is encountered.

So, the recipe I was using, was the one in the recipes section "Modern" Mead.

I'd opted for "sweet" so planned to use 4lb of honey to the gallon.

From previous attempts, I know that making a must with 4lb of honey can result in quite a high starting gravity, IRO 1130 to 1140.

Some of the WAH contributors would frown at that, in the belief or with the suggestion that you shouldn't start a ferment much above 1090 (ish).

But, having looked around the net, it does seem quite a common practice for mead makers to start meads at that level - though I understand it can sometimes be problematic.

So, what's best to do ?

As discussed earlier, start with an sg of 1.090, let it ferment down to 1.010 or so, then feed more honey to it.

not sure why you want such a high-alc mead, though.

Is it likely to better, especially for the newer mead makers to aim for a lower gravity, but to remember that depending on the yeast and it's alcohol tolerance, that the ferment can be "fed" with more honey later on i.e. further through the ferment process ?

yes

Or to suggest that it's probably a non-issue to follow a recipe "blindly" ? and make the ingredient quantities exact ?

Blind is never good. Would you trust a blind man behind the steering wheel of a car?

Then there's the main problem I encountered with this batch. One of pH values.

As most here will already know, with pH values, the lower the number the more acid, the higher the number the more alkali. Which is fine.

My problem arose, because you will find if you look around the net, that on average, honey seems to be about 4.0 to 4.5 pH, but as with any natural substance, those values can vary quite wildly.

In my case, I'd mixed the honey, water, tea and yeast nutrient. I wanted to check the pH level before adding any acid, and while I wouldn't have been surprised to find a reading of between 4.0 to 5.0 somewhere, I was completely taken aback to get a measurement of 6.36 - damn near neutral (neutral being 7.0).

add acid then.

Now this also highlights one of the controversies of mead making particularly. The addition of acid to a must.

It seems that there are 2 schools of thought, adding acid to a must to achieve a certain pH value before pitching yeast, or not adding any acid until the wine has finished fermenting and adding the acid to taste, or possibly to a certain pH value.

Now in my case, I was hoping that the must would have had a pH low enough to not add the acid until after the ferment, but with a reading of 6.36, to the best of my understanding, I could easily expect fermentation problems.

So initially, I just added the 1 teaspoon of citric acid recommended in the recipe. That only seemed to drop the pH by a small amount.

It did stress me out some, as I was at a loss, as to what I should be doing.

But it lowered the pH by a small amount. That's what acid does.

To start with, most of the available info mentions the issue of increasing a pH value if it's too low i.e. adding Calcium Carbonate, but there seems very little info about what to do if it's too high.

Add acid.

Of course, there is the obvious one of adding more acid, but it seemed to me, that in this case I'd need to add rather a lot.

So what's right ?

Not sure if that's a question or a statement. High pH, add acid. Low pH, add Calcium Carbonate.

In this instance, I've used some of the guidance/advice I've received from both forums and from "normal" websites/documents that I found and read. The result being that instead of adding just the 1 tsp of citric acid, I have a total of 4 tsps of acid in the batch, 2 of citric and 2 of tartaric.

What exactly is a "normal" website?

The result of this action has been to drop the pH value of the must down to 4.29, which as I currently understand things, is OK.

Result!

The issue here, being that of the 2 schools of thought mentioned above, one says that you should start a must/batch/ferment at a certain value, whereas the other says that yeast will do it's job ok right up to just the acid side of neutral (IRO 5.0 to 6.0 or so).

So which is the better suggestion for the new mead maker ?

This is the art of meadmaking and winemaking. I prefer to have the values in order.

I for one, certainly don't know. Whether you end up with a better taste/flavour without acid during ferment or not ?

Taste is in the eye of the beholder. I prefer slightly more acidic wines, some don't. You need to know which is right for you.

Of course, honey is no different from other flavouring type country wine ingredients inasfaras it's nominally already acid. Plus there are quite a number of other factors that affect taste/flavour/acidity levels/sweetness etc etc, but that's not what I'm trying to clarify.

It's trying to establish a "best practice" for a new mead maker.

regards

JtFB

hope this helped a little.

p.s. Oh and any posted suggestions, could you be kind enough to explain why you think it best to do something a certain way, rather than just "because that's how I do it" - if possible of course. I'm fully aware that there's many different levels of knowledge here at WAH, I'm just trying to put "it" into one place and/or clear up some of the potential confusion that can surround mead making (and no, I don't "do" rocket science either, I leave that to my brother ).

Well, sorry to say, but.... That is the art of wine/meadmaking. The only thing I can say is that I prefer to work with numbers, because that's something I can certainly count on being the same everytime I make a wine. Hydrometer readings/pH values/weights/volumes are all something that can be consistent. I need to match the numbers up to make the best product I can. If something is off, there's no telling what it will be like. So.... "that's the way I do it."

[medpretzel]

May I add.....

You've got the pH/acid/Calcium Carbonate thing down... woohoo! That's the easy part of the wine/meadmaking process.

You now need to concentrate on the art.

I've been giving this some thought tonight while I was trying to install my printer software on my other laptop....

You said you wanted a sweet mead.

I would start at 1.090, do the acid corrections, AND TASTE IT. Do you like it? If so, go ahead and ferment to dryness.

Then, I'd add sorbate to hinder any further fermentation, and sweeten back up to the sweetness that you'd want.

[fatbloke]

FB - Sorry no opinions from this end. You have been making your own decisions and not going along with any of our opinions anyway so why should I express any opinions of which you have no intention of using them anyway? Cheers Daw

Erm actually, I do try to follow the advice that's offered, but when I google for info, there is often conflicting advice.

I feel that you are an exceptionally original mead maker - some of your recipes are a major "Wow"!, though impractical for me - often it's an ingredients thing. Otherwise I'd have attempted all of them.

As for not following advice ? Well as I was aiming for the 3.3 pH when making the batch over the last weekend (isn't that roughly where you've suggested previously ??), but was amazed to get such a high reading, that I was at a loss as to what I should do. Inasfaras, the gulf between 6.x plus and 3.25/3.3 is wide enough for me to question just how much acid I might need to add before possibly ruining good honey (it could have been any ingredient - but in this case, it was honey).

Thus, it's rather unfair to infer that I ask a question and then ignore the advice - I don't. That'd be dis-respectful, and I make considerable efforts not to be that way.

For example, Bob kindly explained the benefits of sticking to the numbers (as has Danina). Which is excellent - that's the kind of guidance that I can follow (possibly varying the numbers some), but I still try to understand the other point of view i.e. why I might have still been OK to have pitched my yeast at the 6.3 pH and it might not have been wrong, well OK probably not the best thing to have done, but at the time it seemed like one of a very small number of options available to me.

This kind of thing is what I felt needs a bit of clarification.

Also, Bob explained his view on going for a certain gravity - and then possibly feeding the ferment with more sugar or in my case, more honey. His explaination of the technique is excellent - though I've also read that some mead makers (specifically) prefer to chuck all the honey in at the start as they feel that not doing that can give rise to a "famine and feast" situation in the yeast. I can also follow the thinking of that point i.e. apparently it's said that "feeding" can also stress the yeast.

Hence my question for clarification on such matters - I've yet to find that sort of explaining of the differences or pro's/con's of such techniques in any book - sometimes they aren't even mentioned.

not sure why you want such a high-alc mead, though.

it's not that I'm aiming at a high alc' mead Danina, but what the recipe suggests is an appropriate amount of honey for dry (3lb per gallon) and sweet (4lb per gallon). I don't know exactly how old the recipe is, so it maybe like Bob says about CJJ's recipes - that they do seem to use a lot of sugar......

Plus, as you say about the pH problem i.e. increasing, then use the calcium carbonate, reducing, then add acid - in the example I used I guessed that I might have had to add too much acid, but I don't know how much "too much" might be (actually, the 4 teaspoons that are in there is, to me, a hell of a lot - but maybe it isn't ??).

The "normal" website comment ? I meant normal, as in not having forums/bulletin boards. Some of the ones I've found are all in HTML, whereas others are an HTML front page followed by links to a mountain of .pdf documents.

Taste is in the eye of the beholder. I prefer slightly more acidic wines, some don't. You need to know which is right for you.

Ah! now that it is a good question, do I prefer more acidic wines ? I don't know.

I don't know enough about the art of wine tasting to say that I actually know the difference.

I know that with commercially made grape wine, I prefer mainly heavier French ones (St Emilion, Margaux and similar), plus one or two of the Australian produced ones (Penfolds - Bin 35 comes to mind. Plus I got one from an online wine store called "Black Stump" that was good). Are these more acid ? Do they have a lot of tannin ? I don't know, I've just enjoyed the taste of them when I've tried them.

I like country wines to be sweet, but does that relate in any way to acidic ? again, I don't know.

Have the comments/posts been helpful ?

Yes, most definitely yes.

Of course, it won't stop me thinking about other methods (and then probably asking the "why" question), but the majority here seem to be "follow the numbers" people. Hence it's what I'm trying to do (not always successfully), but I now see that where I'm going wrong i.e. following recipes too rigidly, and not using the facilities I have available at the correct time (that'd be things like adding too much honey and not taking a hydrometer reading until I'm ready to pitch yeast - I should try half or three quarters of a recipes suggestion - and then keep taking measurements every time I add another ingredient - the same probably goes for pH readings). Plus not always understanding what I can do if something does go wrong.

Brilliant answers, as ever, very much appreciated.

regards

JtFB

[medpretzel]

Ah! now that it is a good question, do I prefer more acidic wines ? I don't know.

I don't know enough about the art of wine tasting to say that I actually know the difference.

Brilliant answers, as ever, very much appreciated.

regards

JtFB

Ah, now there's an easy answer to this question!



You don't know? You have a pH-meter, don't you?

Test the wines/meads that you like with the pH-meter. You at least will know what the ending pH should be. Work backwards from that with the notes that you have on other meads.

You've taken pH readings from other meads, throughout the process (hence the importance of taking notes), and you can say now: "I started with this pH and it ended with this pH!"

So.... work a bit from behind with the data that you can gather from the things you like.

It's all statistics in my eyes (I am a statistics freak - ask Bob).... And numbers do not lie. That's why I prefer to use number values in my winemaking... But I do not forego using my tastebuds either. It's a delicate dance that is so worth learning the steps to, but just like learning to dance - some is by knowledge, some is by practice, some is by experience, but also one cannot ignore talent.

And all that takes time to be able to master it all.

You're on your way. Keep the faith, and use the knowledge and tools that you have. Don't doubt yourself too much, be confident. If you make a mistake, take note of it for the next time. If you have a success, take note of it for the next time.

This thread is turning out to be a great one for WHY you need to take notes, WHY you need to learn to train your palate, WHY you should question historic recipes, and WHY you should use the equipment that was made for winemaking.

You're learning!

And your meads will thank you for it!



M.

[medpretzel]

Oooh, yes...

Sweetness means (usually) a bit lower acid. But too low acid makes a (wine) mead flat-tasting. To me, that means "flabby"....

Take, for example, a wine that has too much CO2... I taste it. CO2 is also known as Carbonic ACID. It is an acid. You can drink it, and not like it, because the balance between sugar and acid is just not right.

Shake the wine a few times, get the excess CO2 out, and you have a completely different wine.

Buy the cheapest wine that you like, pour a glass, and do the shake test. Pour another glass and taste them side-by-side....

If you concentrate on it (at first - it will come to you with practice, just like anything else), you WILL taste the difference.

[medpretzel]

Another note to tasting wines/meads....


Bite the bullet and take your better half out for a fancy evening (even if that means dressing up - trust me, she'll love it, and you'll love the rewards!) and do a wine-tasting. Have OTHERS tell you what you should be tasting. See if you do. If you don't, don't worry about it. If you do, hurrah!

Then, read the bottles! Usually there's a small blurb of some kind or another about "cherry overtones" or "forest berries"....

The best thing I can say is - get marmelade and try what that tastes like pure. You'll start to taste it too, with time. You just have to concentrate on it.

Tannins - to me, tannins taste like what they are. When you eat a grape with seeds, and you bite down on the seed? THAT is tannin to me. Bitter, yet.... somehow... a compliment in a weird way to the sweetness. Tannins leave that dry-feeling on your tongue after you've swallowed the wine.

Also, read up on "slurping" the wine when you take that first sip. It opens up the olfactory (smell) nerves and you taste the wine much fuller that way. You look like an idiot when you do it, but you'll have a great rush when you do this successfully for the first time. about 80% (roughly) of our taste is through our olfactory nerves. That's why when you have a cold, everything tastes bland.

So.... It's off to bed with me.

Hope this helps with your doubts.

Onwards! Upwards! Meadwards!

M.

[medpretzel]

but I now see that where I'm going wrong i.e. following recipes too rigidly, and not using the facilities I have available at the correct time (that'd be things like adding too much honey and not taking a hydrometer reading until I'm ready to pitch yeast - I should try half or three quarters of a recipes suggestion - and then keep taking measurements every time I add another ingredient - the same probably goes for pH readings).

By George, he's got it!

Onwards! Upwards! Meadwards!

[medpretzel]

Alright, I'm feeling particularly helpful tonight (probably the new-onset insomnia I'm experiencing), so here we go...

My take on "Normal" websites...... (true story)

Don't trust 'em, unless they're like a Jack Keller, WinePress, or WAH reviewed recipe.

It's a bit harsh to say, but like you have noted, you're using a recipe that dates back to (possibly) pre-war times. Peer-reviewed things are much more helpful recipes that are listed in any books. Why? Well, because first of all, there was rationing. Secondly, people were fermenting even (gasp) parsnips. (Not that I won't try it one day, but.... there are much nicer things to ferment - are we in agreement?)

So, that being said, let me tell you a story that makes me shudder to this day. And that is why - although I'm known as a weirdo-winemaker because I ferment seemingly anything under the sun - I am very cautious about a lot of things.

I wanted to make a christmas wine. It was going to be "Kiss me under the mistletoe" Mistletoe Wine. Perfect. I had the label ready, bought the mistletoe, found a recipe on a "normal" website even. Not one mention on this website that Mistletoe was deadly toxic. I was lucky enough to have mentioned it on a forum, and I was vehemently discouraged to make the wine. I didn't. I would have buried all my "friends" under the mistletoe, had I made the wine. How awful.....

So, peer-reviewed websites like this one is something much more valuable than "normal" websites. "Normal" websites have one owner, usually, and no credibility is given to his/her status (Reputation points, etc). And if we go on further, as is in the medical field, "Evidence Based Winemaking" is probably much more helpful to the modern winemaker than is CJJ Berry's old recipes from pre-war times. I'm NOT AT ALL saying his recipes are not valid. In fact, I love using them - but only as a guide. I have modern (and not so modern) tools to help me get a wine at the place I want - hydrometer, pH meter, titration kits, and above all..... Tastebuds.

This is not in reference to your question, but a general comment. It always amazes me that no one tastes the must before they pitch the yeast. I always do. It's something that has become a "general guide" for me when I add sugar to my wines. I can pretty much say by sweetness now that I've hit the general SG... Also, I can say, "I need to add more acid" or "Something's missing." And in that way, I think I've tweaked my recipes to a way that I like them. I have my notes, which I have from start to finish. Even when I am preparing the must, I am writing down what I am tasting. A bland starting wine will taste bland when finished, most likely.

So ... with that said....

Good luck, use the tools you have, no matter where you get them from.

M.

[NorthernWiner]

Sweetness means (usually) a bit lower acid.

Well...

This statement I would have to disagree with. Anytime you have a sweeter wine, it needs to be balanced with more acid. Test the pH of a sweet Riesling and compare it with an Australian Cab and you will see exactly what I mean.

John,

There's no harm whatsoever in supplementing your knowledge by reading from different sources - provided those sources are authoritative. You'll find that texts often disagree on the small stuff, such as when to use enzymes, what the best fermentation temp is, etc. But the basics vary little from one book to the next.

I often get the best information from talking to commercial winemakers or reading trade magazines. After all, these people have their hands in the stuff (literally) all the time. And, yes, I do a lot of online reading too. In the end, you just have to try different things until you find what works best for you.

Steve

[Hippie]

I think Martina was saying if you intend to make a sweet wine, you need to start with more acid. (going out on a limb)

John, you need to take explicitly good notes. By that I mean you shouldn't leave anything out of your notes that you are thinking while preparing and tasting the must, while you are stirring and/or punching down (taste it), while you are racking (taste it), while you are doing anything to the must and/or wine you should be tasting, thinking about what you are wanting or trying to achieve with a particular wine or mead, and writing it ALL down. You will learn more by doing this than even from all this wonderful advice you are getting today.

Kudos to all for this informative thread !

[medpretzel]

Yep. That's exactly what I meant.

Thanks guys!