Clarification of advice/ideas/suggestions/techniques

[lockwood1956]

What a fab thread full of great info.

It appears to me John, that what you need to be doing is making some "style" choices before you make the batch

i.e. what is it you hope to achieve, then working backwards from there, the amount of acid is a good one, as if you are making a mead/wine that you intend to sweeten, you will need more at the start if you are to balance the sweetness at the end otherwise your mead./wine will be cloying.

If you like the Australian style of wines, a lot of them have had the PH lowered through acid additions and then the acid precipitated out at the end. So it may be that you like wines that were "tweaked" and adjusted afterwards, try to find out more about how the wine/mead came to your table.

I have just recently had communication from the chief Steward of the mead section of the Great Yorkshire show, I have Pm'd you his email address, as there must be a similar guy at your end of the world, perhaps he can put you in contact with mead makers in your area (maybe not, but worth a shot)

Run tests on the commercial meads you like (Acid SG and PH tests) gather as much info as you can, it will help you make better wine/mead.

Find a local wine circle, get involved in stewarding at wine/mead events, you will learn so much from it.
as ever...hope this helps
regards
Bob

[fatbloke]

Ho ho! Some absolutely brilliant stuff here.

-----%<-----

You don't know? You have a pH-meter, don't you?

Yes.

Test the wines/meads that you like with the pH-meter. You at least will know what the ending pH should be. Work backwards from that with the notes that you have on other meads.

You've taken pH readings from other meads, throughout the process (hence the importance of taking notes), and you can say now: "I started with this pH and it ended with this pH!"

So.... work a bit from behind with the data that you can gather from the things you like.

It's all statistics in my eyes (I am a statistics freak - ask Bob).... And numbers do not lie. That's why I prefer to use number values in my winemaking... But I do not forego using my tastebuds either. It's a delicate dance that is so worth learning the steps to, but just like learning to dance - some is by knowledge, some is by practice, some is by experience, but also one cannot ignore talent.

Ok, yes I follow that. I'm then presuming that, say a pH at the start of a ferment is 4.0, should it be about the same when finished? Or is it dependant on the actual flavouring ingredient ? i.e. I've read about the stuff that explains that some fruits (like honey as I've found out) is more acid than others - so apart from using less additional acid, is the start/finish numbers being the same or close appropriate or is that yet another bit of good advice that I've mis-interpreted ?

Oooh, yes...

Sweetness means (usually) a bit lower acid. But too low acid makes a (wine) mead flat-tasting. To me, that means "flabby"....

Hum? yes, I get that - not that the "flabby" bit actually rings any bells as a flavour/taste fault that I recognise.....

Take, for example, a wine that has too much CO2... I taste it. CO2 is also known as Carbonic ACID. It is an acid. You can drink it, and not like it, because the balance between sugar and acid is just not right.

Shake the wine a few times, get the excess CO2 out, and you have a completely different wine.

I've done some of the "CO2 thing" and have noticed the change in taste - though again, I'm not sure I've an acute enough sense of taste to be able to identify it particularly (I'm the idiot who eats the vindaloo or phall in the curry house, the difference being that I'm the sober one!).

It's probably something that I have to try and learn to spot - damn I wish that "proper" meads were drinkable as soon as the ferment is finished - Oh well, it's a good thing I've got 3 gallons of "Uncle Joe's" on the go.

My take on "Normal" websites...... (true story)

Don't trust 'em, unless they're like a Jack Keller, WinePress, or WAH reviewed recipe.

Well that would seem good advice - though I don't usually use "them" for recipes, more for techniques of different ways of making something - perhaps I'm still hunting the "holy grail" of easy (plus I'm lazy, so anything that makes like easier).

-----%<-----
So, that being said, let me tell you a story that makes me shudder to this day. And that is why - although I'm known as a weirdo-winemaker because I ferment seemingly anything under the sun - I am very cautious about a lot of things.

I wanted to make a christmas wine. It was going to be "Kiss me under the mistletoe" Mistletoe Wine. Perfect. I had the label ready, bought the mistletoe, found a recipe on a "normal" website even. Not one mention on this website that Mistletoe was deadly toxic. I was lucky enough to have mentioned it on a forum, and I was vehemently discouraged to make the wine. I didn't. I would have buried all my "friends" under the mistletoe, had I made the wine. How awful.....

Oo oo! I've got an excellent recipe for wine made with mushroom liquor - those pretty red ones with the little white dots on them I'm sure they'd make lovely wine! - Ok perhaps that mightn't be the most sensible idea in the world then

So, peer-reviewed websites like this one is something much more valuable than "normal" websites. "Normal" websites have one owner, usually, and no credibility is given to his/her status (Reputation points, etc). And if we go on further, as is in the medical field, "Evidence Based Winemaking" is probably much more helpful to the modern winemaker than is CJJ Berry's old recipes from pre-war times. I'm NOT AT ALL saying his recipes are not valid. In fact, I love using them - but only as a guide. I have modern (and not so modern) tools to help me get a wine at the place I want - hydrometer, pH meter, titration kits, and above all..... Tastebuds.

This is not in reference to your question, but a general comment. It always amazes me that no one tastes the must before they pitch the yeast. I always do. It's something that has become a "general guide" for me when I add sugar to my wines. I can pretty much say by sweetness now that I've hit the general SG... Also, I can say, "I need to add more acid" or "Something's missing." And in that way, I think I've tweaked my recipes to a way that I like them. I have my notes, which I have from start to finish. Even when I am preparing the must, I am writing down what I am tasting. A bland starting wine will taste bland when finished, most likely.
-----%<-----

Guilty as charged! It wouldn't even occur to me to taste the must before pitching. I mean, I know what the ingredients are, so logic would dictate (wrongly, so it seems) that I know what the must will taste like.

Though in my own defence, the phrase "balanced" doesn't really mean much i.e. if "it" tastes reasonably sweet, and basically reflects the flavouring ingredient (fruit in mind here) then to me, it'd be balanced.

I do actually have a batch of mead that hasn't finished/it's stuck/somethings wrong..... i.e. it didn't want to restart, so it's at about 1030 - but as it's from the "modern" mead recipe, then it's probably had about 100 point drop (there's 12 litres of it). So I think I'm gonna use it to experiment. Split it up, and see what happens with some small acid addition - there's enough to try different acids/combinations so I understand more what kind of results I could obtain.

Well...

This statement I would have to disagree with. Anytime you have a sweeter wine, it needs to be balanced with more acid. Test the pH of a sweet Riesling and compare it with an Australian Cab and you will see exactly what I mean.

John,

There's no harm whatsoever in supplementing your knowledge by reading from different sources - provided those sources are authoritative. You'll find that texts often disagree on the small stuff, such as when to use enzymes, what the best fermentation temp is, etc. But the basics vary little from one book to the next.

I often get the best information from talking to commercial winemakers or reading trade magazines. After all, these people have their hands in the stuff (literally) all the time. And, yes, I do a lot of online reading too. In the end, you just have to try different things until you find what works best for you.

Steve

I could test some of the "Black Stump" I've got, but I don't have anything white - any that we get given, get used for cooking. I don't like white wine, I don't know why.......

So comparative testing mightn't be that easy Steve.

But getting others ideas/opinions online is part of what this thread is about i.e. if I find something that contradicts a commonly held belief, then I ask... damn, I drive people crazy asking stuff. Especially if I "don't get it", and keep asking for clarification!

Lots of the "trade mags" do seem to be based in the US and not so easy to get hold of - plus I don't know any commercial wine makers - the nearest I've managed to get is the bloke with the half gallon DJ's and another bloke who was putting in the lorry load of fence posts I delivered for wired supports for newly planted vines.

I think Martina was saying if you intend to make a sweet wine, you need to start with more acid. (going out on a limb)

John, you need to take explicitly good notes. By that I mean you shouldn't leave anything out of your notes that you are thinking while preparing and tasting the must, while you are stirring and/or punching down (taste it), while you are racking (taste it), while you are doing anything to the must and/or wine you should be tasting, thinking about what you are wanting or trying to achieve with a particular wine or mead, and writing it ALL down. You will learn more by doing this than even from all this wonderful advice you are getting today.
-----%<-----

You are, of course, entirely correct. One of my greatest pitfalls is not being organised with my wine/mead making.

Taking notes is one of those things that is (I suspect), more important than I realise - and then completely forget to do, unless I make a batch of something and then come and sit at the PC, then I try to remember to put it on my blog, online notes as it were.

I have not problem with my errors or lame questions being public domain, I figure that if I've managed to think of, and ask it, then others might do the same, ergo an online repository of my mistakes or bad wine making judgements, but valuable advice available for others. You've just gotta love the internet!

What a fab thread full of great info.

It appears to me John, that what you need to be doing is making some "style" choices before you make the batch

How right you are Bob.

If only I knew enough to know what the different styles are, without having to make a batch and then find that I don't like it...

i.e. what is it you hope to achieve, then working backwards from there, the amount of acid is a good one, as if you are making a mead/wine that you intend to sweeten, you will need more at the start if you are to balance the sweetness at the end otherwise your mead./wine will be cloying.

If you like the Australian style of wines, a lot of them have had the PH lowered through acid additions and then the acid precipitated out at the end. So it may be that you like wines that were "tweaked" and adjusted afterwards, try to find out more about how the wine/mead came to your table.

Sound, sensible, excellent advice. All I have to do it try and remember it!, the backwards testing thing would be "doable", whether I understand what I might discover is a different thing entirely - an might lead to a plethora of rather idiotic (more than normal ) questions.

The other part of your point might be a bit harder to achieve i.e. I've never eaten anywhere that actually sells mead, either bottled or on a wine list (they must be out there somewhere).

My main source, thus far, has been Middle Farm, but that also highlights a hazard i.e. I have to go there and manage to buy some mead without buying any cider. Hard, very, very hard .

I should really stop doing the lottery, because if I ever found myself walking around with a big animated finger hanging over my head - I'd spend the rest of my life "in the arms of bacchus", and just before my liver gave out, I might have a clue what I was on about

I have just recently had communication from the chief Steward of the mead section of the Great Yorkshire show, I have Pm'd you his email address, as there must be a similar guy at your end of the world, perhaps he can put you in contact with mead makers in your area (maybe not, but worth a shot)

Run tests on the commercial meads you like (Acid SG and PH tests) gather as much info as you can, it will help you make better wine/mead.

Find a local wine circle, get involved in stewarding at wine/mead events, you will learn so much from it.
as ever...hope this helps
regards
Bob

Thanks, I got the PM.

Will probably email him over the weekend.

As for testing anything commercial I (remember to) buy, now that's a damned good idea. Got to find out about acid and TA kits though. I've read that they're available, but as yet haven't located one (back to browsing the online HBS I suppose).


If/when I manage to get hold of someone locally who "does" wine circles locally, it'll probably only get as far as wandering round and asking (probably dumb) questions.

It's difficult enough finding the time (and money) to do much more than that.

Thanks to all of you for your time in explaining such a wealth of information. It really is very much appreciated.

regards

JtFB

p.s. Oh and the "mickey take" suggestion for the Mushroom recipe, is just that. A "mickey take". Like saying, "I've got some lovely looking calamari, it's got pretty blue rings in it" The mushrooms, like the blue ringed octopus calamari, isn't THAT toxic. Honest!

[medpretzel]

without have reading the post in it's entiirety... Bless you.....

What a trooper.. You're on your way to being a great wine-meadmaker.

[lockwood1956]

John,
I'm planning a style choices in winemaking tutorial at some point in the future.....


watch this space....keep the faith

regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

Ritchies (wholesalers) do the Acid test kits

see here for stockists (if they dont have it they can order it in)

http://www.ritchieproducts.co.uk/html/findastore.html

[compleat meadmaker]

pH details

Ho ho! Some absolutely brilliant stuff here.

Ok, yes I follow that. I'm then presuming that, say a pH at the start of a ferment is 4.0, should it be about the same when finished? Or is it dependant on the actual flavouring ingredient ? i.e. I've read about the stuff that explains that some fruits (like honey as I've found out) is more acid than others - so apart from using less additional acid, is the start/finish numbers being the same or close appropriate or is that yet another bit of good advice that I've mis-interpreted ?

Actually the pH should be lower when the fermentation is complete, as the yeast will absorb a given amount of the alkaline compounds as nutrient to use in growth or metabolism. The pH will often drop as much as a full point, occasionally even more. Understand that pH represents not a specific amount of acidic or alkaline content, but something akin to the ratio of acidic to alkaline ions. That relationship can be very tenuous in musts where the amount of both compounds is very small - if there is very little buffer to begin with, absorption of the needed amount will have a much bigger impact than in musts where there is a lot of both ion types to begin with. Low levels of buffer are most often the case in traditional meads and metheglins, and far less in melomels.

Ken

[fatbloke]

Ritchies (wholesalers) do the Acid test kits

see here for stockists (if they dont have it they can order it in)

http://www.ritchieproducts.co.uk/html/findastore.html

Cheers Bob, I think the local HBS has them on the shelf - but I recall being a bit confused as it seemed like an "acid test kit" might be different from a TA test kit.

Actually the pH should be lower when the fermentation is complete, as the yeast will absorb a given amount of the alkaline compounds as nutrient to use in growth or metabolism. The pH will often drop as much as a full point, occasionally even more. Understand that pH represents not a specific amount of acidic or alkaline content, but something akin to the ratio of acidic to alkaline ions. That relationship can be very tenuous in musts where the amount of both compounds is very small - if there is very little buffer to begin with, absorption of the needed amount will have a much bigger impact than in musts where there is a lot of both ion types to begin with. Low levels of buffer are most often the case in traditional meads and metheglins, and far less in melomels.

Ken

Damn, you've got me there Ken - I'll have to dig out my copy of your book to check on the exact meaning/definition of "buffer" - I've heard the term used in various context, but right now it escapes me.

Either way, I must have got it right enough for it to start, the brew has been bubbling away for about 4 days now and looks like it's going well.

I've got to check the gravity at the weekend, because I'm thinking I might need to vent the DJ, then give it a good shake - depends on where it's got to gravity-wise i.e. whether it's hit the "one third" sugar break yet or not.

regards

JtFB

[medpretzel]

I've got to check the gravity at the weekend, because I'm thinking I might need to vent the DJ, then give it a good shake - depends on where it's got to gravity-wise i.e. whether it's hit the "one third" sugar break yet or not.

regards

JtFB

Why do you want to "vent" the DJ?

And why shake?

And what does gravity have to do with the shaking?

What's a 1/3 sugar break?

[lockwood1956]

What's a 1/3 sugar break?

thats the point where the yeast are halfway to dying (1/3 of the sugar used....another third to go, then the yeasties expire...leaving a 1/3 left in a stuck ferment)

[medpretzel]

Shame on you Bob.
1/3 left in a stuck ferment?

What kind of terminology have you succumbed to?

[medpretzel]

Okay,

basic question for you, JtFB.....

What is it EXACTLY that you want to accomplish with your mead? Quality? Quantity? Experimental value? Quick Drink? Alcohol-high?

[StockeyDAW]

As for not following advice ? Well as I was aiming for the 3.3 pH when making the batch over the last weekend (isn't that roughly where you've suggested previously ??), but was amazed to get such a high reading, that I was at a loss as to what I should do. Inasfaras, the gulf between 6.x plus and 3.25/3.3 is wide enough for me to question just how much acid I might need to add before possibly ruining good honey (it could have been any ingredient - but in this case, it was honey).

FB we are in mead making here it has not been researched as much as making grape or country wines. There are different process to make mead some swear by the no acid method and some use acid like me it works for me and I will not argue that one method is better than the other. FB you are in a special area - heather honey - many have suggested that we can only make mead with heather honey with extended ageing process. Some have suggested many years? This is why we are trying this do we believe that suggestion? I requested you provide the type of heather honey that you have purchased? They will certainly be different in their pH concentrations- you still have not told me the answer. You have made a good effort to get that 6.3pH number down to much more acceptable fermentation zone. I have use 10+ teaspoons of tartaric in my Mead's to get the pH into areas that works for me but I always make a 23 liter batch. Stay away from using the citric acid prior to the fermentation process. You can use citric just before bottling to adjust the acid to your taste if necessary. It may work very well at what you have done. You have I am sure added the enzyme and nutrients. Have you pitched the yeast (what did you use) and is it fermenting? Cheers Daw

[lockwood1956]

but I recall being a bit confused as it seemed like an "acid test kit" might be different from a TA test kit.

No the acid kit is testing the titrateable acidity (TA) expressed either as Tastaric acid or Sulphuric acid (varies depending on test kit)

see tutorial on acid testing for much more info

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=886

[fatbloke]

FB we are in mead making here it has not been researched as much as making grape or country wines. There are different process to make mead some swear by the no acid method and some use acid like me it works for me and I will not argue that one method is better than the other. FB you are in a special area - heather honey - many have suggested that we can only make mead with heather honey with extended ageing process. Some have suggested many years? This is why we are trying this do we believe that suggestion? I requested you provide the type of heather honey that you have purchased? They will certainly be different in their pH concentrations- you still have not told me the answer. You have made a good effort to get that 6.3pH number down to much more acceptable fermentation zone. I have use 10+ teaspoons of tartaric in my Mead's to get the pH into areas that works for me but I always make a 23 liter batch. Stay away from using the citric acid prior to the fermentation process. You can use citric just before bottling to adjust the acid to your taste if necessary. It may work very well at what you have done. You have I am sure added the enzyme and nutrients. Have you pitched the yeast (what did you use) and is it fermenting? Cheers Daw

Hey DAW,

No the supplier couldn't find out whether it was Ling or Bell.

I've been looking for descriptions of the honeys I have available, but for example, the excellent table of honeys in Ken's Book, those seem to be the ones that are available in Northern America (I presume that you can also get the ones like he lists) and not so much here. Like, for instance, Ken's book shows 3 different "Clover" honeys, but as far as I can find out, the only one I can locate is "the one that grows in with the "normal" grass". They don't seem to label/list in quite the same way. Why that might be, I couldn't even begin to guess.

As for the acid addition of the heather batch, well the original recipe said citric, but as I'd worked out that I was going to have to add more than I thought correct/appropriate/safe/whatever I was thinking, I did use 2 tsp of citric, but also 2 tsp of tartaric.

It is fermenting ? yes it's bubbling like a trooper, the yeast I used in the end, was K1V, because I realised (after asking/reading) about the gravity of the must, so I thought it appropriate to try something between 71B and EC-1118.

Although I'd not enjoyed my last effort with K1V, it's alcohol tolerance should leave some sugar. Plus, because of what I've managed to find out about heather honey and ageing, I figured that I'll only end up bulk ageing it for at least 6 to 12 months - then longer if it seems to need it.

As for the enzyme/nutrient thing, I used the Gervins Minavit I have (got 1 box left to use up). The quantities seem really strange though i.e. the box says this

"A mixture of mineral salts, amino acids, and vitamins, including inositol, nictotinic acid, pyridoxine, thiamine, pantothenic acid and biotin."

The label goes on to say : "Typical analysis nitrogen 12%, phosphorous 20%, potassium 8%, magnesium 2.9% contains no urea".

and then finishes with : "Suggested dosage 1-2 grams per gallon for wines: 6 grams/litre for fermentation of sugar solutions to high alcohol levels"

So I followed the instruction for 6 grams/litre - maybe too much ? Either way it's bubbling. So .........

regards

JtFB

[lockwood1956]

So I followed the instruction for 6 grams/litre - maybe too much ? Either way it's bubbling. So .........

that does seem like a lot of nutrient John


maybe add it in stages?

too much nutrient can be as bad as not enough (sorry....more confusion)