carboys vs. buckets for primary ferm

[fullmoonwinery]

i use 38 ltr plastic buckets with lids for fermenting beer and belvino wine kits. never had a problem with either.

i'm about to start on wines #1 and #2 and i know the instructions say to use DJs or carboys with an airlock. is this really necessary for primary fermentation? do you think there would be any disadvantage or risk in using a bucket with a lid? i'm fermenting in a very sanitary environment.

i want to do this because the buckets are cheap, easier to clean and easier to check what's going on inside than a carboy. i don't actually have carboys, i have 20 ltr plastic drinking water bottles which as totally opaque.

i was planning to transfer to the 20 ltr plastic drinking water bottles for clearing and conditioning without using an airlock, just screw the lid on tight.

does this sound like a good or bad ideas?

thx steve

[cpfan]

Steve:

First, when I made a couple of wine #1s, I started them in a small pail (3 US gallon ice cream pail actually). I then transferred to a 1 gallon jug with bung & air-lock.

IMO, the primary should have lots of head space for stirring, and any foaming that occurs. Then for secondary, etc use a vessel with limited head space. So if you're using 20 litre water bottles, you should be making 20 litres of wine. BTW, check the size, they are 18.9 litres around here.

Since the wine will be generating CO2 (depending on sg when transferred) or releasing CO2 when sitting, I do not like the idea of a solid top.

Finally I don't like using plastic water bottles, but I know that lots of other folks do.

Steve

[Darren]

I use a bucket for primary then transfer to a dj for the secondary i think its a lot easier to work in a bucket for the primary and like you say there is more room for the foaming.I also think is saves topping up when you transfer to secondary as i try to always just go over the 1 gallon mark on the primary

[fullmoonwinery]

thanks for the quick replies.

yep, i got my quantities a bit off. i brew 23ltrs of beer, not sure about the exact volume of the bucket but i have about 2" headroom in the buckets. with 16 ltrs of wine in the water bottles (very thick plastic walls by the way, not like PET bottles), i also have about 2" headroom. i guess the total volume is about 19ish ltrs.

i was thinking to mix up about 20-21 ltrs for the primary in the bucket and racking it into the 19+ ltr bottles, close to full for the secondary.

there isn't actually any fermentation in the secondary is there? the wine #1 calls for a camden tablet after first racking which should kill any remaining yeast right? so should be ok to put a top on. i doubt they are very air tight.

steve

[Duffbeer]

Dont get confused, wine#1 tutorial doesn't do primary bucket fermentation so therefore is fermented dry and camden tablet is added on completion.
If you are going to bucket ferment, then transfer to secondary when the sg reading is around 1.010 fit airlock and ferment out then rack and campden.
I do not like solid stoppers, they can be easily popped off with simply a change in temp. As for your water cooler bottles, they are ok for fermenting vessels, but DO NOT use these as long term storage as your wine WILL oxidise, I say this from experience, I have had two batches stored in these that were both correctly topped up & sulphited, both oxidised after about 8 months.

[fatbloke]

thanks for the quick replies.

yep, i got my quantities a bit off. i brew 23ltrs of beer, not sure about the exact volume of the bucket but i have about 2" headroom in the buckets. with 16 ltrs of wine in the water bottles (very thick plastic walls by the way, not like PET bottles), i also have about 2" headroom. i guess the total volume is about 19ish ltrs.

i was thinking to mix up about 20-21 ltrs for the primary in the bucket and racking it into the 19+ ltr bottles, close to full for the secondary.

there isn't actually any fermentation in the secondary is there? the wine #1 calls for a camden tablet after first racking which should kill any remaining yeast right? so should be ok to put a top on. i doubt they are very air tight.

steve

It's sort of like this..........

It's all well and good managing a ferment, in a plastic bucket, possibly with a grommet/airlock arrangement, but there are issues with some so called food grade plastics.

Some of them e.g. polycarbonate, are very slightly air permeable and can also hold an aroma/smell after a while. which is why you should probably be thinking along the lines of PET or HDPE. Thats not to say that polycarbonate water cooler bottles are out, I've fermented in them a number of times without problem.....

Also, some would say about the air space of bucket/lid combo being too much......well for long term storage they're probably right,but during and after the ferment (but before you do anything of course) the ferment is blanketed with CO2 thats been produced by the yeast. As soon as you open the bucket and do anything, you loose that protection, so then you need to be thinking about containers that are more manageable and can be filled pretty much to the top to reduce the available airspace and chance of possible oxidation.

Finally, there's the issue that the stronger/higher % ABV the liquid, the greater the chance that the actual plastic material will be attacked by the alcohol. After all, alcohol itself is a fine solvent, and it's partly why beer is safer in plastic than wines and of course, distillates are always held in glass for sale, copper or stainless during production and depending on what the distillate is, wood or glass (some times copper/stainless) for ageing. It only tends to be in "chemical grade" plastics for very short periods like for pre-bottling shipping etc.

Hence you'll probably be fine making No1 and No2 in plastic of an appropriate type, I believe they're both designed as "early drinkers/good quaffing" wines, but if you're thinking along the lines of ageing for any length of time then you should be looking into where you can obtain DJ's/carbouys (for less ageing issues and that bulk aged wines are less prone to temperature fluctuation than bottles) or possibly a good supply of bottles to age the wine that way.

regards

jtfb

[fullmoonwinery]

again, thanks for the great info.

for the white #1 i was planning on fermenting to dry, about 998 in the primary, the food grade plastic bucket. about 7-14 days at 22degC i guess.

then rack into the big water cooler type bottle, add the campden tablet and probably degas at that point. wait about 8 days for sediment to fall out at about 10-15degC.

rack again (maybe another degas, vacuum method to reduce oxidization risk) and add finings. bottle when totally clear, about 3-4 days.

bottle and store also at about 10-15degC for a couple of weeks and drink.

steve

[hedgerow]

i prefere to use a bucket for the primary because it allows for a full gallon and foam and its easier to stir in some air or to use an air stone if i want to

[fullmoonwinery]

i prefere to use a bucket for the primary because it allows for a full gallon and foam and its easier to stir in some air or to use an air stone if i want to

are you talking about oxygenating at the start to kick off the yeast?

[fatbloke]

are you talking about oxygenating at the start to kick off the yeast?

You only need to pop over to gotmead to see whats being done with "very" high gravity musts (yes, mainly meads).....

Bob and other more knowledgeable members here , like to use 1080 to 1090 as starting gravity levels, and I'd guess this is about getting a good (and successful) start for new winemakers......nothing is more guaranteed to put people off, than making a batch, blindly following a recipe and ending up with a stuck ferment first time.

whereas, with vvv high gravity musts (and very alcohol tolerant yeasts) it is actually possible to manage a ferment so that you get a high alcohol wine, that has some residual sweetness. Though such techniques aren't recommended for the beginner.

Stuff like daily aeration (sometimes just a good stirring, but other times using a pump and air stone, or even bubbling pure O2) or staged nutrient addition or chaptalization etc etc.

hence these methods not being recommended to the newcomer as they can have more problems than the answers/results that are actually being sought........

regards

jtfb

[hedgerow]

it started off years ago, one of my old instructors used to use a fish tank air stone set up for his beer. This was for the yeast starting off, he then started to use it for his wine musts, with good results. I use it to airate the must properly before and durring the first three days of yeast insertion. It does produce a very strong fermentation at times so you do need to switch it off at night , just in case. some of my ingrediants have been removed from a steamer and as such are oxygen depleted, sometimes the same can be said of fruit juices from cartons, but thats just my opinion and i am sure others will disagree,

i have done several experiments with high alcohol yeasts and find that the extra O2 helps aswell, but will normaly use the small addtition systems to increase alcohol contents, this gives me better results and a more controlled set up of works.

just a small point but in several of my beer books that are modern and not very old they have started to mention air stones it has also been seen on several of the wifes 3kg kits aswell

[fullmoonwinery]

i'm just going for normal table wine, SG about 1078-1080, FG about 998.

i know its important to oxygenate beer before adding yeast to ensure complete fermentation but this is the first i've heard about airating wine and especially using an air stone (from an aquarium ship i assume).

i wonder if its a good idea with normal 12% ABV wine to air it with an airstone for a couple of hours before pitching the yeast? sounds like it can't hurt.

i only ask because i've had a couple of stuck ferments so far and i'd like all my wines to ferment to dry in one shot.

steve