tannin confusion

[bill]

first thanks to all for the warm welcome . its a great site and already leart lots browsing through the pages . in other threads i had some good advice and think i have sorted my first wines problem ( too acidic but still very good) for a first attempt. this has spured me on to try a new batch but correctly balanced with the potential to be aged or at least not go bad quickly..

i think i pretty much have the acid thing straight ( at a beginners level that is ) im at a total loss re tannins. now i have read most white wines dont call for this so this doesnt seem a problem..

now to rose and reds..

after reading around it seems some recipes using grape juice and maybe apple juice ( which is what i want to use ) vary in the use of tannin. this is what confuses me . some use it and some dont.

i understand also tannin helps preserve the wine when ageing and will mellow down with age.

on another thread i was given good advice in detecting tannin /acid ect which was great .

a few questions

1, how do i know if a particular red requires tannin or does all red require it

2, if so how do i know how much , or is this a personal taste thing for each winemaker or dependent on the natural level of the fruit or a bit of both

3, is this tested ( and added if needed) before fermenting as i would the acid level

4, can it be added at a later stage in the wine production.

this may seem really silly

why would say a white wine using white grape juice need no tannin yet a wine with red juice need it.

sorry for being a headpeck , the internet is a great place but can swallow you up with allsorts of "facts"

billy

[bruiron]

With white grape you only have 0.02% tannin with red grape it's 0.2% per 100ml

[bruiron]

For white wine tannin shuold be 0.04% and red should be 0.09 - 0.3%

[kampervan]

tannin comes from grape skins. white wine doesnt mean white grapes just pressed juice,red wine is fermented on skins so extracts tannins

[bill]

hi bruiron , going off your figures if im using red grape juice then the tannin level is already pretty much at the top of the scale of required amounts so why do some recipes add it..

take wine #2 for instance , now dont get me wrong im not trying to prove anything just trying to understand..

it states 1/4 tsp of tannin..

is this figure because water is used in the recipe thus in effect watering this "natural" level of tannin down ?

if so, if the maker of wine #2 were to for example use an extra L of red grape juice i take it the amount of tannin needing to be added would be less.

billy

[Duffbeer]

The grape juice we buy as in wine # 2 lacks natural tannin, it has spent little or no time on the skins, basically pressed red grapes, as mentioned above it's the contact with red grape skins that give the tannins of a full red wine.
Unfortunately the description of wine # 2 is a little misleading, it doesn't produce a red wine, though it does produce a pleasant rose, the lower tannin is correct here as a rose needs to be more fruity than tannic, though a little tannin is necessary for a little astringency & bite.
The addition of another ltr of red grape juice will just make this take longer to be drinkable, hence with the wine # 1+2 less is best.

[NorthernWiner]

is this figure because water is used in the recipe thus in effect watering this "natural" level of tannin down ?

Yes, this is one reason you see tannin additions in fruit wines.

Tannin is one of the components that contributes to "balance" in a finished wine. It doesn't really contribute flavor, but rather texture, and can best be described as "astringency."

The four components that must be balanced to create a pleasing wine are sweetness, acidity, bitterness, and astringency.

Some components compliment each other. For example, high acidity can be masked with sweetness (think lemonade). Lower acidity can be balanced with greater astringency (think tea). Astringency, in turn, helps mask too much bitterness.

Likewise, some components fight each other. For example, high acidity combined with high astringency will make for a very harsh drink. I have a case of pomegranate wine in my cellar that fits this description. It's hard to drink now, but as it ages and the tannins soften, I'm hoping it will improve.

Everything with winemaking is about balance.

[bruiron]

Hi Bill,
Tannins are a family of natural organic compounds that are found in grape skins, seeds, and stems. Additionally, during the aging process oak barrels infuse tannin into the juice. They are an excellent antioxidant and natural preservative; also helping give the wine structure and texture. Tannins provide an important flavor dimension in wine.

Winemakers have a good degree of control, and use that to enhance the final product. They use specific juice extraction techniques to reduce or increase the amount excreted. Specifically, they can very gently squeeze the grapes to extract the juice, whereby not releasing much of the tannin. The opposite is true as well. In the case of red wine, grape skin contact is longer, the crushing of grapes is more violent, and barrel aging is longer...resulting in a stronger tannin dimension in the wine.

Red wines with little tannin should be drunk young. However, a red wine that should age and improve for perhaps three or more years requires a lot of tannin. As the wine ages, the tannin softens and becomes less noticeable.

Fred.

[bill]

ok thanks for that chaps, its becoming clearer now.. i think a few solutions with different ingredients is in order so i can at least identify the tastes .

going to invest in a beginners book when i order some stuff ..


so for instance if im going to make a wine from a certain ingredient is it just plain knowledge of the fruit in question regarding its natural acid/tannin levels and then work from there ?

ie if i use a fruit naturally high in acid and say no tannin then i know i have to bring the level of acid down to an acceptable level and raise the tannin. if its high in natural sugars then it will take less added sugar to reach a specific start gravity ect

and a wine intended to be kept for a while to age shouldn't taste too great young because of the higher levels of tannin required to preserve ect

am i along the right lines ( beginner wise)

billy

[NorthernWiner]

so for instance if im going to make a wine from a certain ingredient is it just plain knowledge of the fruit in question regarding its natural acid/tannin levels and then work from there ?

ie if i use a fruit naturally high in acid and say no tannin then i know i have to bring the level of acid down to an acceptable level and raise the tannin. if its high in natural sugars then it will take less added sugar to reach a specific start gravity ect

Well.... no.

You probably shouldn't worry too much about tannin at this stage. Tannin comes more into play if you are making dry red wines from grapes. And if that's the case, the grapes themselves will have plenty of tannin.

As a beginner, I think your best bet is to follow recipes before venturing into the unknown. This will help you gain confidence and learn techniques for creating balanced wines. Creating your own recipe can be a tricky proposition without first having a basic understanding of wine chemistry and what elements comprise a balanced wine.

I would suggest you first make a wine using a proven recipe. Once the wine is finished, you can then experiment by pouring several glasses, and adding things to each glass to gauge the effect. For example, put a control sample aside. Then maybe add a little sugar to one of the glasses. Add a pinch of tannin to another. Add acid to a third. Taste each glass and compare it to your control sample to understand the effect. Once you have this much down, then the next step might be to try combining different elements to see what happens.

And, of course, you can learn a lot from commercial wines, too. Start tasting wines and learn to describe what you like or dislike about different wines. Once you understand what you're tasting, it will be much easier to try to duplicate the effort.

[lockwood1956]

going to invest in a beginners book when i order some stuff ..

Progressive winemaking (acton and Duncan) will teach you what you want to know.....it isnt a beginners book, but will stand you in good stead for ever.

If you buy first steps in winemaking (the no1 best seller) the methodology at the start is good....however the recipes are old hat and have waaaaaaaaay too much sugar, si if using those recipes, or any others come to that, use a hydrtometer to monitor your sugar additions.

regards
Bob

[bill]

cheers again , yes i think your right. i dont mind following recipes and am willing to learn so maybe thats my best bet.

the reason i may seem to be trying to run before i can crawl is i started off basically as an experiment from a tv program where cider was made from nothing at all but apples.. a few web sites later and i was makng turbo cider ( yuk)

i followed a basic turbo recipe but using grape and apple, pear juice and it turned out really tasty with a nice pear aroma and got me sloshed toboot.

everyone has loved it even me who i would say am not a wine lover as i havnt really tasted one that i didnt think was overpowered by alcohol or some other overpowering taste ( albeit cheapo wines)

there was just an aftertaste which overpowered the rest of the drink on some bottles ( not sure if these bottles were nearing the bottom of dj on transfer)

hense my questions.. i have a web site of my own as im into amateur radio ( morse code ect) and have people from all over the world e mailing and asking questions regarding making antennas or some other equipment , some of which seem so easy they shouldn't need asking so i guess its the same for you guys reading what may seem silly questions here from me so thanks for being patient but as i say i have a wine #1 on the go anyway..

cheers again

billy

[NorthernWiner]

Billy, I think you're on the right track by picking up a book or two.

There are no silly questions. I find that people who first learn to make a few drinkable batches tend to persevere in the hobby. On the other hand, I've known more than a few people who quickly became frustrated with winemaking and gave up, simply because they didn't bother attempting to learn the basics before taking the next steps.

In fact, I am meeting with a friend later today who, for his very first winemaking attempt, decided that he would make 40 gallons of cranberry wine (his parents own a cranberry bog). He used no recipe, and now has several containers of an undrinkable substance (I hesitate to call it wine) that he doesn't know what to do with. Hopefully it's salvageable.

[bill]

cheers for all the good advice.

billy

[ukric]

I have just read the book Bob mentioned (thanks Bob) he's right, if you can get hold of it it's geared towards technique more than recipes. What's good about it is it tells 'you do this because' not just 'do this'.

The only bit of bad advice in the book seems to be the advocation of asbestos pulp filters lol but that's just because of it's age, everything else is spot on.