What can I replace grape juice concentrate with?

[Petrovitch]

Hello everyone. I think this is my very first post even though I have been avidly reading this forum for a few years... most of what I know about winemaking comes from here!

There are a LOT of elderberries, blackberries, sloes, plums and so forth around here at the moment and I want to make some tasty red wines. However my girlfriend is violently allergic to fermented grape products (a glass of wine would literally kill her) and there are quite a few recipes I want to try that include a tin of grape juice concentrate... In particular I fancy trying Sniper's Chateau Neuf du Pape and I have quite a few similar port and red wine clone recipes, but I don't know what to replace the RGJ with without upsetting the balance of the wine.

Can I just boost all the other fruits an equal amount? If so how much do you recon by to replace a tin of RGJ in a gallon of wine? I believe RGJ helps with body and mouthfeel? so if anyone could recommend a non-grape alternative method to achieve the same effect I would be incredibly grateful!

Many thanks for your help guys and gals

[elleks]

I believe you can use raisins, but I'm not sure of the quantity. No doubt some of the more experienced winemakers will tell you.

[fatbloke]

Well, apart from body/mouth feel/viscosity, I can't, off the top of my head think why it would be needed.

Elderberries and blackberry would have enough colour/tannin etc, you would probably use sugar or honey to be able to increase and set the %ABV of the finished wine.

So if I've read your post correctly and it's just about the body/mouth feel thing, then what about using glycerin in the finished wine. You don't need much and it's a regularly used additive for increasing the viscosity of a wine that lacks body and feels a little thin/light.

regards

fatbloke

p.s. as I said you don't need much - possibly as little as 1 tsp per gallon and are you sure that it's the fermented grape that you GF is allergic to and not any sulphites used in production ? It might be important to find out which as lot's of recipes will use sulphites and they are one of the few items that must be listed as an ingredient (by law I believe - as they can prompt strong allergic reactions)

[lockwood1956]

Hi Petrovic

happy first post!


When you say she has allergic reactions to fermented grape products, is it an amine allergy, or is it sulphite?

changing the yeast used to ferment can alter the production of amines, as can controlling fermentation temperatures........ give us a little more info on the allergic reaction and perhaps we can come up with a solution....


Tasty red wine?

It doesn't get much better than Elderberry/blackberry

Per Gallon:
2lb elderberries
2lb blackberries
Sugar to 1.080
1tsp Tartaric acid
1 tsp pectolase
1 tsp good quality nutrient
good quality wine yeast (I would use Lalvin K1V-1116 or RC-212)

4lb of fruit is perfect, adding more wont add anything at all to a dry wine, if you are planning on dessert styles then up fruit to 6lb per gallon, and look to add other fruits.

once fermented to dry add 10g medium toast French oak for around 8 weeks. Mature for 1 year......DELICIOUS

I have started preparing my blackberries and elderberries using a steam juicer, and would use a 50/50 blend going into the steamer, then use 2 litres of this juice per gallon, and then prepare in the normal way, this will give you a drinkable wine from the word go, but after 1 year maturation it is scrumptious (and has taken prizes)

For a little more mouthfeel and body, you may wish to either use a yeast that will increase glycerol production during ferment,

Lalvin S6U: This strain was selected for its unique ecological characteristics, such as the ability to ferment at low temperatures in musts with low levels of suspended solids. The most unique properties of this strain are its high glycerol production (1-2 g/l higher than other strains) and high titratable acidity (1.5 g/l higher) at the end of fermentation, adding to increased mouthfeel. Repeat fermentations with this strain have shown lower alcohol conversion compared to other Saccharomyces uvarum strains when fermented under cool conditions.

this yeast is not available in the UK, but the internet and mail order make the world a small place

or alternatively add glycerine after ferment is over.

I don't really think you need to be adding anything else for flavour, but if you wish then perhaps a little raspberry in the mix (careful though as they can overpower) maybe some bilberries or black/red currants. but I would be thinking of adding these as background flavours and so in much smaller quantities as the Elderberries or Blackberries

Elderberries are the perfect winemaking fruit, they have everything required in winemaking in more abundance than Grapes except for sugars.

Thanks for posting such an interesting question

hope the answer helps

and .....welcome aboard (actively that is )

regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

Here you go...

available mail order from morewine

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/16499/103218/Dry_Wine_Yeast_-_W15_8_g

[lockwood1956]

Forgot to add......

I wouldn't use sloes or plums or indeed any stone fruit to a dry red wine, ans I don't think they bring much to the party, apart from a rough edged harshness and masses of pectin. (just my two pennerth)

[lockwood1956]

Can I just boost all the other fruits an equal amount? If so how much do you recon by to replace a tin of RGJ in a gallon of wine? I believe RGJ helps with body and mouthfeel?

Apple juice can add body and mouthfeel, but wont add vinosity.


Fruits to add for body....Apricots, dates and figs....but they can produce sticky syrupy feeling wines.......I'm not a fan it has to be said, I dont want my wines to feel like gravy on the tongue.



Banana syrup used in moderate amounts can help produce good mouthfeel.

Boil 1lb peeled and chopped bananas in approx 1 pint of water, and add the syrup (not the pulp) to your must, it will add body and aid clearing.


I have been for the last couple of years been trying to produce wines from as near to pure juice as I can.....processing the fruit in a steamer helps me achieve this. The only stuff I ferment on the pulp is red grapes, this is necessary to extract the goodies that produce big dry reds.

OK I'll shut up now, you just got me interested and all fired up is all


regards
Bob

[scotbrew]

My interpretation of the use of grape concentrates in recipes is to do with aiding fermentation and not flavor, changing to sultanas or raisins is just another form of grape so is not the best idea, if you want to omit concentrate from recipes I would suggest a bit more yeast nutrient but on second thoughts that might be grape based as well..........it is not that long ago grape concentrate was not available and wine makers done just fine without it, so thats what I would do............carry on without it.

[NorthernWiner]

I'm with Bob. I think berries are your best option for making wine.

I've never made an elderberry wine (I'm not particularly keen on the flavor by itself, though it's not bad in blends), but some of the best wine I've had was made from fruit-other-than-grapes. Blackberries, strawberries, cherries, and raspberries are all good winemaking fruits. Pure apple juice, fortified with additional sugar, makes a particularly good wine, in my opinion.

Do you know exactly what component of wine it is that your girlfriend is allergic to? It might have nothing to do with the grapes themselves, but with something else, such as alcohol, sulphites, shellfish extracts, etc.

Could be worth finding that out before diving right in and making something that could cause just as much of an adverse reaction as grape wine.

[Cellar_Rat]

I for one, would like to understand the reaction/allergy a bit more. Is it only red wine?
Given its seriousness, could berry wines not have the same effect?

If I was her I would avoid everything unless I fully understood it.

[Petrovitch]

Thank you all so much for your information-rich replies!

I should probably clarify the allergy thing a bit... she went for a load of tests as a kid after having a few bad reactions to something, and they eventually got to a connection with wine (from cooking I presume), followed that up and it's either an enzyme or some similar sounding component (she can't remember) that is produced when grapes ferment that she is incredibly allergic to. So basically they told her never to touch fermented grape products - literally a few drops on her skin and it will be swollen and painful the next day - and she never has and has been fine ever since. She drinks everything else under the sun tho and has never had any problems... So thank you Lockwood for the amine-reducing idea but I'm going to stick with grape free as I don't want to tempt fate!

Cellar_Rat that's an interesting point, she's never had a berry wine (only my mead and flower or juice wines) so this weekend I'm making a few tiny test batches of blackberry, elderberry and probably sloe. I've got some damson and blackberry on the go tho and although tasting rough as ar$eh0les at the moment it didn't do anything to her...

Fatbloke - glycerin sounds good, I ordered some recently to try in a couple of recipes and will bear its uses in mind.

Lockwood that blackberry and elderberry recipe looks perfect! Thanks for all the notes on useful fruit additions, I'm also with you on the benefits of the juice extraction path (Colin Tweed's video was very interesting).

I should probably emphasize I'm not planning to just make something and giver her a glass and see if she keels over I love all wines and styles, but if I can make mostly everything without grape bits they she can enjoy it too and everyone's happy What I really want to do next yeast is a grape-free dry or medium elderflower... glycerin and apple juice seem the way to go... and maybe a bit of banana syrup or apricot or something similar...