Another Bentonite query.

[TStarr]

Hi all, more guidance required please.

I was keen to see what effect Bentonite might have on clearing wines. I took 6 different wines that were all 5 to 7 months old - clearing ok but thought Bentonite might make a difference. All have been degassed, and racked 3 times or more.

Types - "Blackberry & apple", "Damson", "Blackberry, apple & elderberry" all finished, degassed and even sorbated - produced from fermentation of the fruit, and 1 teaspoon of pectolase in procedure.
"Pomegranate" from supermarket juice - no pectolase.
"Peach" from tinned peaches - 1/2 tspoon of pectolase.
"Quince" - steam extracted juice - no pectolase.

Used approx 1 level teaspoon of bentonite, per gallon of wine - whisked it in water with blender - left to hydrate and settle for 14 hours - restired and added to wine - stirred 4 times thereafter, thru the evenng, on the hour and then left to work its magic.

3 weeks later, I am not impressed - bentonite seems to be at bottom, but not one of them is what I would describe as clear - Quince and damson still opaque - shining torch thru all of them still gives a torchlight thru fog effect. Even the peach, you can just make out that you have put your hand the other side of the dj.

I really think most of them were clearer before I put the Bentonite in! (The Pomegranate was 1/2 of a 2 gallon batch - the other, unadulterated one, is clearer then the "Bent" one.) I was about to rack them off the Bentonite as I am not sure that any longer will achieve anything and also whether you can get flavours off it.

So where do I go next? Try more Pectolase - does it not leave any flavour etc? More bentonite? I have Kwik Klear as alternative. I have a Harris filter, but thought things had to be much clearer before using that. Or just leave them for another couple of months, whilst shaking my fist at them and the tub of Bentonite?

Thanks as ever for any comments and direction.

[gordonmull]

Forget bentonite. Gravity. Patience. Parts A and B of the best finings I've found.

Seriously though, I'd just leave it and rack it in a couple of months. It'll drop out I'm pretty sure.

Actually I do use the stuff but only for the other half's raspberry Malina wine that she can never wait for. Usually add 2tsp/gal of youngs beer and wine finings first and the next night add 1 tsp/gal bentonite and it clears very fast. I'm assuming that the YB&WF is negatively charged and the bentonite pulls the rest out of suspension with it's +ve.

The rest of my wine, well I'm a patient man.

[Richard S]

I prefer to add bentonite at the start of fermentation. Here is some info I found while surfing.

Bentonite is a negatively charged substance and when hydrated and added to wine, it will attract the positively charged particulate in the wine. As bentonite hydrates and swells, it becomes like a sponge which accounts for it's very large surface area. When it is mixed thoroughly into the wine and is dispersed throughout, the positively charged matter in the wine attaches to the bentonite. The weight of the molecules then cause the matter to drop to the bottom of the container and become what is known as "finings."

There are different preferred methods of when to add bentonite to the wine, and we'll discuss this in the next section.

Using Bentonite In Your Wine

There are two different schools of thought on when to add bentonite. One school says to add it to the must before you add yeast. The other school of thought suggests that bentonite be added after fermentation has been completed. There is no right or wrong answer, and with your own experimentation, you may end up with your own preference. Regardless of when you add it, the actions of bentonite are the same. However, some believe that there is an additional benefit when adding to the must before fermentation begins.

When added to the must on the first day, it is thought that the bentonite will begin to work immediately, and drop to the bottom with particles attached, within a day or two. However, during the fermentation, large amounts of CO2 are released during the process, and this causes the bentonite to circulate, constantly, attracting more positively charged particles. This means less work for the winemaker than if bentonite is added after the fermentation.

If bentonite is added post fermentation, it will eventually sink to the bottom with some particles, but possibly not all, so when it is added after the completion of fermentation, the wine should be stirred for several days in order to recirculate. For those winemakers that spend some time degassing their wine by stirring or using a device such as a "Fizz-X," this isn't an issue, But for those that just want to leave the wine to degass on it's own, then adding bentonite at the beginning of the winemaking process is probably the best time.

You shouldn't just add bentonite directly to your wine or must. Instead, you should hydrate it first. This can be a wee bit tricky; if you don't do it correctly, you'll just end up with water and a glob of "mud." I like to use about half a cup of hot water (100 degrees F. or higher), and then very slowly, as I'm stirring the water with a fork or a whisk, pour the bentonite into the water. Stirring vigorously will help to ensure a more uniform mixture of bentonite and water, which can then be poured into your must or wine. Of course, you should stir your wine immediately upon adding the mixture to it.

Bentonite may be added to any type of wine, red or white. It may seem weird at first (like it was to me when I first used a kit that called for adding clay to my wine!) to use bentonite, but don't worry - with the use of bentonite, you'll in fact be ensuring less dirt and particulate in your finished wine!

[lockwood1956]

You likely have a pectin haze.......You are using stoned fruit and they are notorious for pectin hazes, if I am making wine from stoned fruit then 2 teaspoons of pectolase go into the must. If boiling, hot, or even warm water is used in the process I double that dose. So for your quince from steamed juice, I would have used 3 to 4 tsp pectolase per gallon.


Neither Bentonite or two part finings will remove a pectin haze. To test fro the presence of pectin, take a smalll sample of the wine and add to it some methylated spirits, shake violently for a couple of minutes and if it goes stringy then there is pectin present.

I always add the bentonite at the start too.

hope that helps
regards
Bob

[cpfan]

stirred 4 times thereafter, thru the evenng, on the hour and then left to work its magic.

I'm under the impression that bentonite requires a LOT of stirring to do it's job. It needs to wander round the liquid to find particles worthy of attachment.

That's one reason why adding it pre-fermentation is good. The activity of fermentation causes it to circulate well.

Steve

[TStarr]

Thanks all - can pectolase be added after fermentation to any effect? Is there a downside to adding it if unnecessary?
I was given to understand Bentonite worked fast, definitely within a fortnight - so if after 3 weeks I am still no better off than before adding the Bentonite, is it safe to assume the Bentonite has precipitated out, and a pectin haze is a more likely culprit as per Bobs diagnosis. Doesn't pectolase work best with lower levels of alcohol, and in which case do I say double the dosage to aid a finished wine - say 2 teaspoons?

[lockwood1956]

Adding pectolase after ferment is over, is less effective, but will work fine. However, if it Is pectin, I suspect 2 tsp of pectolase may not be enough.

Do run the methylated spirit test first to be sure that it is in fact pectin you are dealing with....

regards
bob

[gordonmull]

Bentonite is a negatively charged substance

Oh dear, getting my cations mixed up with my dogions.

[TStarr]

Wow at nearly £4 for 1/2 a litre, would be cheaper to bin the wine and drink the Meths!!

Still I have some now, so off to test for stringyness!

[TStarr]

Hmmm - wow and not so wow!

Tested with about 50ml Meths to 15 of wine - shook them up and left for 30 mins - in all I got sediment appearing - not sure I would call it "stringy", but it did want to coalesce into small mass together.

Put 2 teaspoons into the Damson and Quince which seemed most cloudy / largest deposit - and one in the Peach, and Apple/Blackberry/Elderberry djs.

Expected to have to wait a few days for any impact - but woke up 12 hrs after addition, to find the damson had dropped a huge deposit (3/4") leaving the remainder a lovely rich colour. Is this how Pectolase would be expected to work? It is almost how I would have expected the Bentonite to work!! (is there any chance it was still in suspension when I racked it off, there was probably the least deposit compared to the other 5 djs)

The other 4 have not experienced similar reactions - is it a time, or quantity of Pectolase issue?

[lockwood1956]

The sediment in the quince will compact quite a bit if left.

I believe it's a quantity issue, increase the dosage to the same as the one that worked.

regards
Bob

[TStarr]

Getting nowhere near the reaction of the Damson, with any of the other wines, and have raised the dosage to 3 teaspoons in the Quince and the Peach ones. Surely there has to be a limiting factor (other than cost!!) - does it not impart some flavour? Do I wait for any period of time before increasing the dose, say in half teaspoons?

[lockwood1956]

The pectolase will not taint your wine in any way....

Add the dose, wait 48hours
then if notr effective add another dose.

You are dealing with fruits very heavy in pectin, and you have used heat, this would mitigate dosage of at least double (if not treble) if added at the start of fermentation. this equates to quadruple or sextuple dosages required post ferment (assuming its a pectin issue)

hope that helps
regards
bob

[TStarr]

Thanks Bob, will keep going - as I was having trouble adding directly to the dj, on my last I actually mixed a couple of teaspoons of the Pectolase with a small quantity of wine before adding back to the main DJ. Seemed to have an almost instantaneous effect on the small sample of wine used for mixing, but was of course a hell of a high dose.

The colours that spring to life when the milkiness is cleared are remarkable. Just tested 3 wines from steam juiced musts (Damson and Elderberry), that were maturing in brown djs, and whilst they have had no sediment the last 2 rackings, they are all hazy - time to order more Pectolase!

[TStarr]

wow - the Damson batches cleared with 2 for the fermented on the pulp, and 4 for the steam juiced batch - some v heavy deposits 1/2 to 3/4" thick.

The Apple/Blackberry, Quince and Peach, all refused to drop anything similar with up to 7 teaspoons - tried some Kwik Clear and out the sediment came tumbling - still a fair bit visible in suspension, but I only used the KC 4hrs ago.

I am so not going to scrimp on Pectolase with any future musts!!

Further question - getting ambiguous results when testing my steamed Elderberry - does Elderberry give rise to Pectin??