Acidic blackberry wine

[billybuntus]

Hi chaps,

I made two 5 gallon batches of Blackberry wine in 2010. I made a couple of changes including yeasts. Unfortuatley I lost all of 2010's notes when my Hard drive failed (I now backup too two locations).

The first batch was a hit and the second was ready for bottling (clear as a whistle) until I tasted it.

I used MA33 in one batch (seem to think it wasn't this one) and one of the GV's in this one.

I've tried sweetening with upto 4 level tablespoons of sugar in 500ML wine (approx 25 Grams sugar per 500ml) and 1/2 teaspoon glycerine it takes the edge of it but it still has an acidic BITE on the finish and is too sweet for my liking.


My first thoughts are to brew a few gallons of straight elderberry and blend. I should have around 12Lbs elderberrys in the freezer (3 gallons).

Any thoughts? Really wish I had my notes.

I don't have access to a chest freezer to try and knock the acid out of it and I'm not sure how much it would help?

[SiSandrine]

Can you remember which acid additions you made. The freezer would only work if you had added too much tartaric. The predominant acid in blackberries is malic I believe.
In that case or if you added Malic acid (unlikely) then you may have experienced some form of spontaneous MLF (even more unlikely) or used a more malic acid reducing yeast. Some of the Gervin ones reputedly do that but I have never noticed much difference.
Were the batches from the same fruit picked at the same location on the same day and then divided between the two batches? Was it a pulp fermentation?
If the glycerine doesn't help along with sugar then it sounds very acidic. What is the aroma like - not vinegary at all I presume but fruity?
If otherwise all normal then go with your idea of blending with a less acid wine if you have one. If not then your idea of fermenting an elderberry wine (using steamed juice ideally) and conducting some bench trials to get the right flavour profile for your palate would be the best bet.
I am going through something similar with some apple and grape wine from last year which was far too acid and very hard. I have a couple of gallons of low acid WN1 specifically for blending.
Hope this helps.

[billybuntus]

Can you remember which acid additions you made. The freezer would only work if you had added too much tartaric. The predominant acid in blackberries is malic I believe.
In that case or if you added Malic acid (unlikely) then you may have experienced some form of spontaneous MLF (even more unlikely) or used a more malic acid reducing yeast. Some of the Gervin ones reputedly do that but I have never noticed much difference.
Were the batches from the same fruit picked at the same location on the same day and then divided between the two batches? Was it a pulp fermentation?
If the glycerine doesn't help along with sugar then it sounds very acidic. What is the aroma like - not vinegary at all I presume but fruity?
If otherwise all normal then go with your idea of blending with a less acid wine if you have one. If not then your idea of fermenting an elderberry wine (using steamed juice ideally) and conducting some bench trials to get the right flavour profile for your palate would be the best bet.
I am going through something similar with some apple and grape wine from last year which was far too acid and very hard. I have a couple of gallons of low acid WN1 specifically for blending.
Hope this helps.

I would have added my acid blend which is 50% tartaric, 40% malic and 10% citric acids (around 5 teaspoons I would have thought, 1 per gallon).

The blackberries were picked from a large bush all in one go around 40 lbs. Pulp fermentation.

The wine smells fine just tastes very acidic.

Thanks for the input. its good to hear other views.

Looking back at it it might just be worth cold stabilising? or do you think the elderberry blending might just hit it?

[SiSandrine]

Might be worth trying to get some of the tartaric to drop out then if you have the facility. Maybe draw some off into a small PET bottle, add a pinch of cream of tartar and leave in the bottom of the fridge for a few days to see what happens. If that doesn't work then I'd go for the blending.
I had some wild plum wine last winter which I didn't think had much tartaric acid in. I added an acid blend in thos sort of ratios and I had used sultanas too but was amazed how much crystal developed. Just as well too as it turned out.

[billybuntus]

Might be worth trying to get some of the tartaric to drop out then if you have the facility. Maybe draw some off into a small PET bottle, add a pinch of cream of tartar and leave in the bottom of the fridge for a few days to see what happens. If that doesn't work then I'd go for the blending.
I had some wild plum wine last winter which I didn't think had much tartaric acid in. I added an acid blend in thos sort of ratios and I had used sultanas too but was amazed how much crystal developed. Just as well too as it turned out.

Roger that.

What's the process?, never done it before other than shoving a few gallons of wine in the snow to try and aid clearing.

[SiSandrine]

Medpretzel did a tutorial here

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1595

The problem is getting the right temperature. Textbooks seem to say -4 is about right for tartrate precipitation. Wine freezes at about -10c so a normal freezer (-18) is out. I have found that I do get some crystals forming at the bottom of the fridge but that is about 4 degrees and probably more by luck. You could wait until next winter I guess and hope that we get a spell of really cold weather.
I think I would put some in a small plastic (PET) bottle with a small pinch of cream of tartar and put it in the freezer for say 2 hours and then remove to the bottom of the fridge (or ice making compartment ideally) for about a week. If no crystals form at all then I would blend.

The cream of tartar crystals will help by seeding the process. You will only need very few to get things going.

[Duffbeer]

Try Ritchi's acid reducing solution, it works a treat and leaves no aftertaste like precipitated chalk can.

[billybuntus]

it works a treat and leaves no aftertaste like precipitated chalk can.

Cream of tartar?

[Duffbeer]

Pottasium carbonate.

[SiSandrine]

Thats a good point - you could get some Pot. Carbonate which will tell you immediately whether tartaric acid is the problem here. If it works on a small bench trial then you'll know. It is not effective (chemists can say why) on Malic Acid so if that is the problem then blending is the route.

[billybuntus]

Thats a good point - you could get some Pot. Carbonate which will tell you immediately whether tartaric acid is the problem here. If it works on a small bench trial then you'll know. It is not effective (chemists can say why) on Malic Acid so if that is the problem then blending is the route.

So pot carbonate will work if its tartric but leave the wine with a chauky taste?

[Duffbeer]

No, that's why I reccomend it, preciptated chalk can leave a chalky taste.

[billybuntus]

So is Pot. Carbonate what ritchies acid reducing solution is? or is this something else again?

[lockwood1956]

Yes Ritchies acid reducing solution contains potassium carbonate

regards
Bob

[lockwood1956]

And it doesnt leave a chalky taste

regards
Bob