Wine no1 experiments- Body

[lockwood1956]

Standard dose is 1 tsp per gallon...if dealing with stone fruits I normally double the dose, if warm or hot water is used, i quadruple the dose......



hazes that clear at room temp are not normally pectin hazes

if you wish to test for the prescence of pectin, take a sample of the wine and add to it some methylated spirits....shake like crazy, and if it goes stringy....pectin is present.

Hazes that clear when temp rises are not normally pectin hazes....not sure where you picked that up from?....if your haze is due to the prescence of pectin, it will not shift till you add a pectin destroying enzyme like pectolase

regards

bob

[malcmackenzie]

Hello all

I have just finnished a wine number 1 with quality grape juice at £1 in a waxed carton and fermented it wit Lalin K1-v1116 and it is good but there seems to be somthing missin .... body I would say or depth.

The very first batch I did with value grape juice at 75Pence and a much darker colour this seemed to have more depth although at the begining teh juice was very dark almost oxidised.

However the yeast I used was Youngs Bordeaux. The yeast wasnt very good and struggled to ferment I had to restart all.

However I believe the yeast did impart depth like chardonnay

Does anyone know of a good yeast that will impart some of this sort of flavour perhaps from the Gervin range maybe.

[krakowmike]

Standard dose is 1 tsp per gallon...if dealing with stone fruits I normally double the dose, if warm or hot water is used, i quadruple the dose......



hazes that clear at room temp are not normally pectin hazes

if you wish to test for the prescence of pectin, take a sample of the wine and add to it some methylated spirits....shake like crazy, and if it goes stringy....pectin is present.

Hazes that clear when temp rises are not normally pectin hazes....not sure where you picked that up from?....if your haze is due to the prescence of pectin, it will not shift till you add a pectin destroying enzyme like pectolase

regards

bob

Hi Bob

Not sure where I got that info about the haze worsening when cold. Still, they are not as clear when they are cold. Not sure what it is in this case-

[Delmonteman]

Did you use 100% juice or juice with sweetner?

Sorry for the late reply, I haven't been about for a while. I followed the WN2 recipe to the letter, but swapped the 1l of blueberry for 1l of red grape. The juice did not contain sweeteners. I'm just trying to say be careful when you backsweeten if you do an all grape WN2...

If your still doing a WN2 trial, I'd suggest creating a new thread (unless you already have that is!)

PS - well done krakowmike for a great thread.

[krakowmike]

2 months after bottling- Sultana

Unfortunately the Mrs and the sister in law opened the bottle while I was on-call. They really enjoyed it.

The following day, the wine had slightly more body than the control but not as much as the glycerine. It tasted similar to a Greek straw wine, but a watered down version of it. This wine has slightly more depth than the control. I think it failed at added body. Maybe next time, I'll try adding a little more sultanas. I do want to avoid the oxidised taste some posts have mentioned after too much sultanas.

Nonetheless, it was a hit-

Above are my first notes of the sultana wine. Today I've opened another one. Colour golden tinge with good clarity.. There was some sediment thrown off. I filtered before bottling but maybe didn't leave it in the DJ long enough to clear before filtering. Body is watery but does leave a creamy finish linger a little. It has a nice bouquet that the control lacks. It reminds me of some of the house wines we've had at small Italian resturants. On the fisish, I get a hint of green apples (must be the apple juice coming through).

In all, the sultana enhances all the positive notes of a tradional wine number one. It did nothing for the body, however I think there is some benefit in adding some sultanas to your wine number one. Adding a whole can of WGC maybe a little overkill, so the answer lies in sultanas for that extra umph!

[owlwithoutfeathers]

Hi Krakowmike,

I've been offline for a few months, but wanted to extend the congrats for a job well done! I've got my WN1 from Sept/Oct sitting in the shed still; havent tried it yet since first racking, so will be interesting to see how the maturation has done. Hope its not ruined!

I'm glad the glycerin added something. It looks like you could take the best of maybe all of the additions and add a little of each for a final bottle? i.e. a pinch of wine concentrate for body/bouquet, some glycerine for roundedness/body, some banana for aroma and some sultanas for depth and added colour? Or am i mad?!?!

Owl

[lockwood1956]

The best tweak (in my opinion) is the addition of a teaspoon of elderflowers near end of ferment.....I have done many different tweaks and i reckon anything else just doesnt seem to add much

sometimes less is more



This wine is a great base for experimentations, and everyone should be able to tweak it to a "house wine" that they like to make and drink

regards
bob

[krakowmike]

The best tweak (in my opinion) is the addition of a teaspoon of elderflowers near end of ferment.....I have done many different tweaks and i reckon anything else just doesnt seem to add much

sometimes less is more



This wine is a great base for experimentations, and everyone should be able to tweak it to a "house wine" that they like to make and drink

regards
bob

Would dry elderflowers work?

[lockwood1956]

Would dry elderflowers work?

they add a nice elderflower nose, but unfortunately also add a bitterness in the aftertaste, that I'm not keen on. Best way is to make elderflower syrup when the fresh ones are available, then you have it year round.

you also need to be careful which elderflowers you use (some of them smell of cat pee) you need the ones that are fragerant and very white, the creamy ones tend to be cat pee like.

regards
bob

[krakowmike]

4 months plus- Banana

We opened up the banana wine no1 today. It wasn't as clear as the others, despite being filtered. It had bouquet that the others lacked. However, the addition of the banana added nothing for the body. Wonder if should've added some pectolase before filtering-

I utilised the banana wrong. Instead of boiling etc, I just added it into the dj.

It does have a nice smell (not banana, not tropical as I mentioned before) that reminds of supermarket Italian wine.

The wine tasted very fresh. Tickles the back of your throat a little, more so than the control. Maybe aging will mellow things out a little bit.

In the end, the banana added bouquet but not body. I wonder if using the banana appropriately would give me a better 'body' result.

Finally, the WGC to try and that's it for round 1

No change to body after aging. The nice smell that I had difficulty describing is replaced by jet fuel alcohol fumes hitting you in the face. I'm not sure why, but the Mrs agrees with the high alcohol content perception, which wasn't there before. Maybe the unsettled sludge masked some of the alcohol and that using a banana added more sugar to the ferment. Nonetheless, this wine tasted much better younger.

[krakowmike]

4 months plus- Sultana

Above are my first notes of the sultana wine. Today I've opened another one. Colour golden tinge with good clarity.. There was some sediment thrown off. I filtered before bottling but maybe didn't leave it in the DJ long enough to clear before filtering. Body is watery but does leave a creamy finish linger a little. It has a nice bouquet that the control lacks. It reminds me of some of the house wines we've had at small Italian resturants. On the fisish, I get a hint of green apples (must be the apple juice coming through).

In all, the sultana enhances all the positive notes of a tradional wine number one. It did nothing for the body, however I think there is some benefit in adding some sultanas to your wine number one. Adding a whole can of WGC maybe a little overkill, so the answer lies in sultanas for that extra umph!

I feel that sultana wine has matured in taste. I described it being slightly watery before but now it is a whole new level. Taking a sip, feels very watery on the tip of your tongue. But as you swallow, body is coming through especially on the back of your throat. Salivation precedes afterwards. Definitely creamy- I may have understated the body inducing capabilities of sultana in the past.

[Leon]

The best tweak (in my opinion) is the addition of a teaspoon of elderflowers near end of ferment.....I have done many different tweaks and i reckon anything else just doesnt seem to add much

sometimes less is more



This wine is a great base for experimentations, and everyone should be able to tweak it to a "house wine" that they like to make and drink

regards
bob

So literally just a few white elderflowers from the trees, pop it into the wine late, and that works? That sounds quite simple.

Has anybody experimented with multiple adittions to add body, as Owl suggests above? Would bananas and concentrate and sultanas and glycerine produce the greatest body in a counry wine? Or would they reach a bodyness limit? Or is it try and find out?

[lockwood1956]

So literally just a few white elderflowers from the trees, pop it into the wine late, and that works?

yes indeedy...will make a dramatic difference on the nose

[Delmonteman]

I have done many different tweaks and i reckon anything else just doesnt seem to add much

Just wondering Bob, what sort of tweeks have you done (off the top of your head), I'd just be interested to know what other kinds of things you've tried? (not necessarily just body either...)

[lockwood1956]

Tweaks?

I have added elderflowers (fresh not dried) after ferment had finished allowing the alcohol to extract the phenolics (bouquet and flavour compounds) made a reisling (ish) copy
I have added rose petals (fresh not dried) after ferment had finished allowing the alcohol to extract the phenolics
I have added raspberries and various other red fruits as late additions to enhance fruitiness (and rose colour) near the end of ferment, careful with raspberries though they are powerful critters
I have added the juice from a small tin of gooseberries near end of ferment (goldseals idea) no solids, just the juice, near the end of ferment, produces a hock like wine
I have added spices (didnt like the effect) star anise was the closest to acceptable, nutmeg was hmmm ok ish, cinnamon was almost ok too, careful with the amounts.

The one thing i havent done is tweak to add more body, If i want a wine with more body i design it in from the start by upping the ingredients. wine No1 is designed to be a light fruity easy drinking wine, ready to drink quickly, if you start adding more body then it kind of defeats the object as it takes longer to become drinkable, and ceases to become table wine.

However I applaud the experimentation that is going on, we all lear from it, but..... table white wine requires freshness and crispness....not body.

NGWBJ definition
WHITE TABLE WINE - DRY
Pale colour is desirable; there should be no brown or pink tone.
The wine should taste dry, without easily recognisable sweetness. The flavour should be pleasant, with no bitter after-taste, and should give an impression of freshness, leaving the mouth clean.
Alcohol content may be between 8.5% and 13%, with acidity between 0.5% and 0.8%. It is most important for this type of wine that the bouquet should be clean, fresh and vinous.
Commercial examples would be white Burgundy, Alsace and dry Loire wines such as Muscadet and Sancerre.