Bulk aging query

[N.K.]

Is it ok to use the 5 gal water bottles ?
If you just squeeze the bottle to get the air out before putting the lid on ?

Nikki

[mcblades]

Personally, I use 5 gal better bottles (same thing as your water bottles I suspect) but only use for clearing after racking. I tend to get the wine bottled as soon as it's cleared. Personally, I think the benefits of PET bottles far outweigh the risks of the 5 gal glass carbuoy.

just my 5p

regards

mark

[rjb222]

No the better bottle carboys are not the same as a water bottle the number on the bottom is different. using a water bottle has the potential of leaching the coating they put on the inside of the plastic.You need to watch the numbers to make sure you are not putting your health at risk. Better Bottle carboys are a great tool for sure. They will not stain or oxidize your wine like the opaque plastic will over all being lighter easier to clean and sanitize much better tool.

[Cellar_Rat]

Is it ok to use the 5 gal water bottles ?
If you just squeeze the bottle to get the air out before putting the lid on ?

Nikki

Make sure on the molded stamp they say HDPE. They will be OK, but bear in mind they are gas permeable (they breathe) so your wine will mature quicker than in glass or stainless.

[Duffbeer]

Is it ok to use the 5 gal water bottles ?

Nikki

NO don't do it, the plastic is oxigen permeatable & your wine WILL oxidise.
Talking from experience here, I have lost two batches of good wine with these bottles.

[rjb222]

Better Bottle carboys are what are being recommended by my supplier as a replacement for the glass and plastic carboys. I was just promoted in store status with RJSpagnols when they came and inspected my store they recommended the replacement of all my opaque plastic and glass carboys with better Bottle carboys. I asked directly the question about bulk aging in these and was told they will not allow oxygen transfer just make sure they are the better bottle carboys the water bottles are not the same plastic and they have a different liner coating that alcohol can dissolve.

[Cellar_Rat]

NO don't do it, the plastic is oxigen permeatable & your wine WILL oxidise.
Talking from experience here, I have lost two batches of good wine with these bottles.

I agree. I used them to 'mature' some wine ahead of the rest. The Australians are doing a lot of work with big plastic (HDPE) tanks 1000's of litres ' cos they are cheaper and quicker than SS.

[Original Mac]

bit puzzled here as the advice seems to conflict entirely with other advice on the forum. I use 5 litre water bottles to age my Beaverdale kits for at least six months but was hoping to extend that to one year. I find these bottles easier to handle than my Bettabottle. Do I need to get these wines into bottles asap? I would need a bulletproof excuse to get another Bettabottle as SWMBO has heard they tend to breed

edit, appreciate this discussion is about 5 gallon bottles but a water bottle is a water bottle....right?

[rjb222]

There are different grades of plastic. Better bottle carboys are a number 1 water bottles are a number 7 that is stamped right on the bottom. Here is a link to Better bottle themselves there are decent explanations and descriptions there. As for bottling you wine right away that is up to you. One thing I have found with wine and beer making using proper equipment and proper technique always produces better product. Using equipment not designed for or not taking the proper techniques and procedures leads to oxidization and off flavors. Here is the link. http://www.better-bottle.com/

[lockwood1956]

bit puzzled here as the advice seems to conflict entirely with other advice on the forum. I use 5 litre water bottles to age my Beaverdale kits for at least six months but was hoping to extend that to one year. I find these bottles easier to handle than my Bettabottle. Do I need to get these wines into bottles asap? I would need a bulletproof excuse to get another Bettabottle as SWMBO has heard they tend to breed

it all depends on what type of plastic it is...there are many grades. If you have been ageing your wine and there is no sign of oxidation, then you likely have the right type.

HDPE is what you need (and i think HDPE 4)

regards
Bob

[rjb222]

Here is a guide to what plastics are good for and what they contain. it is a trade type document so not allot of detail but some good information.
http://www.tradeseam.com/smallbusine...astic+Bottlesn.

[lockwood1956]

From their site....but with links removed...as my antivirus/spam filter recomends i dont visit the site, its because they have sales links. (seen by filter as the same as spam)

Guide to Plastic Bottles Plastic bottles are one of the most commonly used products across the world. Plastic bottles come in various designs, materials and shapes based on the material they hold and its storage.
Resins used in plastic bottles
plastic bottles are made from various resins, such as:

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC)
Typical properties of PVC are:

• transparency
• high resistance to oils
• low oxygen transmission
• poor resistance to high temperatures
• chemical resistance
• vulnerability to solvents
• good impact resistance
• blocks most gases
• flexible

PVC bottles are used to hold cooking oils at room temperature, vinegar, cosmetic products such as moisturizers, shampoos, and similar products. It is useful to store products in freezers as it allows expansion and contraction without cracking.

Polythylene terephtalate (PET or PETE or polyester)
Typical properties of PETE are:

• essential oil and alcohol barrier
• good chemical resistance (except ketones and acetones)
• tensile strength
• high impact resistance
• low resistance to high temperatures (maximum 160°F)
• blocks gases and moisture

PET plastic bottles are used to hold water, carbonated beverages, medicines, milk, and similar products.

Polypropylene (PP)
Typical properties of polypropylene are:

• good resistance to high temperatures (up to 200°F)
• excellent moisture barrier
• high rigidity
• autoclave properties
• high chemical resistance
• low impact resistance at cold temperatures

PP plastic bottles are ideal for sterilization of surgical instruments. They can hold hot fill liquids such as coffee, tea, etc. They are made into jars and storage bottles.

K-Resin SBC
K-resin is a derivative of styrene. Typical properties are:

• transparency
• high gloss
• high impact resistance
• rigidity
• susceptible to solvents (alcohols, ketones, esters, and ethers), fats and unsaturated oils
• low barrier to moisture and oxygen

K-resin SBC plastic bottles are commonly used in attractive display and point of purchase packaging of products. They are not suitable for long term packaging of certain aqueous products.

High density polythylene (HDPE)
HPDE is the most economical and commonly used resin in the manufacture of plastic bottles. Typical properties are:

• good moisture barrier
• good impact resistance
• incompatible with solvents
• resistant to acids, caustics and similar chemicals
• translucent
• non-glossy
• flexible
• tolerance to below freezing temperature
• susceptible to high temperatures ( maximum 160°F)
• unusable for vacuum sealing

HDPE bottles are available in food grade (FDA compliant) quality. They are used widely to store food products (especially perishable), body products, medicinal supplements, tablets, household cleaning fluids, and similar products.

Fluorine treated HDPE
HDPE plastic bottles are treated with fluorine gas to increase its barrier towards hydrocarbon and aromatic solvents.

They are ideal for storing insecticides, pesticides, and herbicides; photographic, electronic, and agricultural chemicals; household, medical and industrial cleaners and solvents; citrus products; cosmetics; flavoring agents; fuels; surfactants; construction, painting and paneling polishes and products; graffiti cleaning products; and similar products.

Low density polythylene (LDPE)
The chemical composition of LDPE is similar to HPDE, but their properties differ somewhat. Typical properties of LDPE are:

• highly flexible
• non-reactive with dilute and concentrated acids, alcohols, bases and esters
• more translucent than HPDE
• high resistance to ketones, aldehydes and vegetable oils
• susceptible to halogenated hydrocarbons

LDPE plastic bottles are ideal for squeezing applications, as they are quite flexible. They are used in dropper bottles, squeeze bottles for cosmetics and medicines, wash bottles, carboys, and similar products.

Polystyrene (PS)
Typical properties of polystyrene are:

• rigidity
• low impact resistance
• high clarity
• low barrier to gases and moisture
• good thermal insulation
• low heat transfer

Polystyrene plastic bottles are inexpensive and are more commonly used to store semi-dry materials such as tablets, spices, petroleum jellies, sterilized filtrates, and similar products.

Post consumer Resin (PCR)
PCR is produced by recycling mostly milk and water HPDE containers and virgin resin. Typical properties are:

• stress resistant
• odorless
• slight yellow tint
• reacts with food and pharmaceutical products

PCR plastic bottles are cheap and can be processed easily in various recycled content percentages. The 100% PCR bottles are used to store household cleaning liquids. Improved processing methods have produced 100% PCR bottles suitable for storing liquor.

Recycling plastic bottles
To help consumers recycle plastic bottles the bottles are marked underneath with a triangular symbol of three "chasing" arrows around a number corresponding to the type of plastic. The numbers are:

• 1 – PETE
• 2 – HPDE
• 3 – PVC or V
• 4 – LPDE
• 5 – PP
• 6 – PS
• 7 – Other

Plastic should be recycled to reduce its effect as a pollutant to the earth's environment. Consumers and distributors should be educated about recycling plastic bottles.

[waggoner]

A different make of bottle...... I bought one of these..

http://www.thevintageshop.ca/allproducts/23_lt__6_gallon__pet_carboy.html

I payed £16.75 for it plus p+p,, but if you read the write up on it, plus tests that the maker has done they seem to think its better than the better bottle make.

At that price, don't think you can go wrong really..

Mark.

[lockwood1956]

Having read the results of the test (carried out by the manufacturer of the product, and i for one was amazed to find out their product scored well)

it seems the only benefit (from a winemaking perspective) that was of any use is that you could drop theirs when full, from a slightly higher height.

having said that, i do own 5 of their carbuoys, and prefer them to the better bottle, but for no other reason than they have no ridges on te side.


i am ageing some wine in them long term. and will report back on the results (in due course)

regards
bob

p.s. the tests they carried out mean absolutely bugger all as far as winemaking is concerned, (as far as i can see)

[Cellar_Rat]

I payed £16.75 for it plus p+p

Still seems expensive for a 'pop' bottle