Micro oxygenation in HDPE containers

[Abervin]

To continue the discussion on HDPE and its use in maturing red wine from Robs thread on oak barrel purchase.

I have done a little online research and from various figures Ive gleened I estimate that the 25 litre jerry cans would have to be approx 3mm thick to give the same permeability (17mg/l/yr) as quoted on the Flextank website (appears it was originally started in Australia) So if they were actualy about 1mm thick (a guess at moment) it would allow you to age for 4 months before over oxidizing becomes a problem. Does that agree with what you found out from your experiments Brian?

Also intrigued on the colour are you saying the larger blue barrels are no good?

[Cellar_Rat]

That does match what I found. 2 to 3 months brought a wine on nicely - hence the joke about Brian's drinking September's wine at Christmas.
Giliogoiliooiolioliiioooo particularly
The bog standard wide neck Young's fermenter is a bit thicker and proved to be very good.
They do stain. All jerry cans are different thicknesses depending on the manufacturer. They come in standard weight and UN spec. UN spec are heavier (and more expensive)
Blue ones are often thicker (even at 25 L). but are more of a risk when trying to clean because you cannot see inside them. truck wash is your friend, but rinse well.
To seal them up effectively you need to tip them back so that the neck is highest, squeeze the sides with your knees and tighten the lid up as the wine trickles out of it.
This keeps everything in tight and allows through a bit of temperature/volume expansion. I have got plans for a clamp type gadget.
The larger 205 L blue barrel is superb. I keep a few of those as standbys.

That's it can't think of anything else... hang on - six almost-full-length 2cmē staves of oak heavily toasted prior to use.

[Abervin]

Thanks Brian, the jerry cans I have are 950g weight so perhaps they are the standard version, I seam to remember Propanoic acid for treating feed barley comes in really heavy duty jerry cans, any experience of propanoic acid additions to wine
Would this style of blue barrels be easier to clean http://www.ampulla.co.uk/OPEN-TOP-KE...-220L/c-1-114/ perhaps the 60 litre would be about the right thickness to volume ratio.

Is heavily toasted gas mark 6 till the smoke alarm sounds for at least 10 minutes

[Cellar_Rat]

Never thought of that, dry weight might be a good measure of thickness/quality.
There are a huge number of manufacturers out there and at a guess I would say there are at least a dozen different shapes that I had seen.

Something else to notice they are not precisely 25 L I have had some that touch 30 L

Propanoic acid - although it is fit for human consumption & a preservative, I only use drums that I know have fruit juice in them (and have a label on them saying so) or are brand-new.

Drums are gas permeable, this also means they are 'stuff' permeable. What goes in drums stays in drums.
To prove this I made strawberry Merlot - trust me on this it's not going to be the next big thing!

Heavily toasted is not gas mark 6 or 7 or 8!!! Your oven will explode (< search that word from details)..... do it on a log fire /wood stove or on a barbecue till it these well charred. The char is part of the magic.

[Cellar_Rat]

Would this style of blue barrels be easier to clean http://www.ampulla.co.uk/OPEN-TOP-KE...-220L/c-1-114/ perhaps the 60 litre would be about the right thickness to volume ratio.

Good find. These drums are significantly thicker, and will be slower. good for long-term. I have a few of these kicking around for other things and I know how they perform. The black lids will warp if they're not permanently attached to the drum.

You would need to drill these and fit an airlock to the wards the edge of the lid. You could then do the final fill through that before fitting the airlock. There is also three parts to this lid the black bit, a steel ring and a rubber seal inside.

Airlocks stop them being being stackable, and was the reason I did not try it - that and my inner Yorkshireman/Scotsman objected!

[oliver90owner]

Airlocks stop them being being stackable

Not an insurmountable problem. A couple of lathes across the top, to afford clearance for the air lock, and being careful when lifting on and off.

RAB

[Cellar_Rat]

.. agreed but you do need access to your airlocks, unless you fill them full of lard

[oliver90owner]

Next suggestions. Thicker lathes or a pipe into a bottle at some position (maybe on the floor?)

[Abervin]

I would say you need to be able to take a sample from each vessel too check on the oaking progress.

[Abervin]

You would need to drill these and fit an airlock to the wards the edge of the lid. You could then do the final fill through that before fitting the airlock. There is also three parts to this lid the black bit, a steel ring and a rubber seal inside.

Would it possible to fit some kind of shinney stainless bulkhead fitting and put a bung in the top, or plastic weld a short tube upstand into the lid, perhaps making it easier to reduce the ullage?

Stacking them is not a problem for me as i'm not making a large quantity of different styles.

Have you experienced any off flavours or odours from the plastic?

[Cellar_Rat]

Would it possible to fit some kind of shinney stainless bulkhead fitting and put a bung in the top, or plastic weld a short tube upstand into the lid, perhaps making it easier to reduce the ullage?

Good idea. A plastic tank fitting in plastic would work a treat.

Tank fitting.jpg

Fit is so that 'A' takes the airlock.

Have you experienced any off flavours or odours from the plastic?

Only from previous contents (strawberry Merlot)

[Abervin]

Good idea. A plastic tank fitting in plastic would work a treat.

My only concern with this approach is the potential of trapping a hugh air pocket between the bottom of B and the underside of the lid. Hence my suggestion of plastic welding a short tube into the lid with a flush underside. Maybe there are plastic fittings with a thin flange at B and an external thread on A for a locknut?

Another question at what stage in the wine making process did you put it into HDPE?

[Cellar_Rat]

I have put finished wine in, to refine it prior to drinking.

I don't think the air gap is huge - wine does need some air.

[Abervin]

Here is a paper from S.A on micro oxygenation http://capewineacademy.co.za/dissert...aauw%20mox.pdf


Just thought about a different route to use with floaty lid stainless steel vessel (if your lucky enough to own one!) would it be possible to fill a bag in a box liner with a predetermind quantity of O2, submerse it under the lid and leave it untill the bag is empty? However mixing pure O2 with alcohol may be risky.

[Cellar_Rat]

Here is a paper from S.A on micro oxygenation http://capewineacademy.co.za/dissert...aauw%20mox.pdf

Hmm. Lots of reading, but not that positive about the results!