Conical fermenters

[Richm]

Having just racked my wine I have come to the conclusion that it is all a bit of a palaver, with a fair bit of unavoidable air-exposure, mess and losses, and I'm thinking one big vessel would be easier. Does anyone use one of those stainless steel fermenters with a conical bottom, floating air-tight lid and tap? If so, how would you rate it – how do you rack it, would you need two? They are quite expensive.

Secondly, my SG hasn't changed from 1006/1009 (I have five carboys on the go) since last racking in December. Does this mean it's stuck (it's been in an unheated garage all winter) and if so is there a remedy?

[Cellar_Rat]

I have certainly moved over to floaty lid vessels (5)
I have not considered a conical bottom, because it is just too expensive for every single one. Anything else would be pointless IMO

[oliver90owner]

Secondly, my SG hasn't changed from 1006/1009 ...

I would imagine it is likely finished. What is 'it'? With no information on what it is and starting gravity, it may be hard to tell. Have you not tested it for sugar, as that is as good a way as any?

Syphoning, for the home producer of domestically consumed wine is perfectly adequate and presents few problems if one properly sets out to do it in a less haphazard way (than most likey do). Pumping, if your carboys are around 100l each might be one option.

By all means use a conical stainless steel fermenter if that suits your purpose. I am sure many of the large scale fermenters find stainless steel a suitable material. The conical bottom should allow the lees to collect and be easily removed, or tap off from the side when most has been removed from the bottom outlet.

I agree they are quite expensive. I would not be puchasing one unless I came across a suitable vessel going for a song.

floating air-tight lid and tap?

I cannot see any advantage for either a floating lid (or a floating tap?). Carbon dioxide purging would seem a better option to me, but I would not be using it every day.

[Richm]

It is montepulciano d'abruzzo grapes, crushed and fermented on skins and stalks starting sg 1093, pressed a week later and decanted into carboys at sg 1025, natural yeast. This was in October (it was a late harvest in Italy) and the outside temperature was 10-12°C and well, you know what the rest of the winter was like up until a few weeks ago!

It has a good colour, a very dry slightly woody flavour and slight tartness on the tongue. I've tried de-gassing with a vacuvin type device, but unfortunately it only works on the glass carboys, the plastic ones just 'breathe in'!

I believe the floating lid has a dry air lock and an inflatable tube around the rim so that it can rest on the surface of the wine (or a fraction above, as you prefer) and then you inflate the tube to make a seal, hence no need for topping up when you rack. My confusion is if you only have the one, then you'd have to rack into a spare vessel, the fermenting bin perhaps, then clean out the stainless steel and rack back into it – more hassle and air exposure unless you're very clever with gas purging etc. Also if you're relying on gravity for syphoning, then you'll need some very strong friends or a hoist to get it off the ground each time ... so add a pump to the shopping list ££££££.....!

[Rich]

Fermented with the natural yeast.. There's your problem.

Without knowing what type of yeast you are using, and its characteristics, its attenuation level and more you have no control over it.

You may get away with making a starter, and adding some of your wine to it, and increasing the amount until it's more than half then adding it to the whole lot. In this instance I'd be tempted with something strong, either EC1118 or K1V.

To degass your plastic carboys, either roll them around on a ball (if they are Better bottle ones) or fill half full and shake with a hand over the end.

[lockwood1956]

I think the natural yeast may be an issue


however you say it has a dry taste, this would not be the case at 1.006,
High acidity might give you the impression of dryness though.

If you want to send me some in a 250ml pet bottle (panda pop bottle rinsed will suffice) I will give it the once over for you

as an aside.......have you calibrated your hydrometer?

[lockwood1956]

Sorry

forgot to add the link to the hydrometer calibration tutorial

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?885-Using-and-Calibrating-your-Hydrometer

hope that helps

regards
bob

[Richm]

Thanks Bob I'll send you a sample. Is your address on the site somewhere? I haven't calibrated my hydrometer but have always used the same one.

You might remember from previous posts I have always been an adherent to 'natural' wine making practices, mainly because I was taught by an Italian friend who's father (and countless other expat Italians around the UK – have a look on youtube) continued the Italian tradition of 'peasant wine' (I'm sure they don't call it that), with a rudimentary process, using vaseline oil instead of air traps, racking and bottling according to the lunar cycle (printed on the label of packets of Italian corks) etc etc. I do use air traps and am scrupulously hygienic.

I am attracted by the simplicity and non-interventionism of this method but I can see that it is a rather hit and miss affair (2011 vintage was a great success, this last one not so great), and I'm beginning to come round to the idea of adding my own yeast strain next time, and maybe even some campden tablets (gasp! Guiseppe will be turning in his grave!). After all, who knows what yeast strains ended up on my grapes between Abruzzo and Stratford Upon Avon? I think the more important issue is how the grapes are selected and grown, ironically the one part of the process I don't have any control over.

[Cellar_Rat]

crikey there is about four or five different threads going here. let's get some easy ones out of the way first


Conical fermenters – these work very well for beer but are not so popular with the wine fraternity. You very rarely see them in a commercial vineyard. There are better ways of doing it.

Floaty lid tanks - very good kit. Pumping out and pumping back is something I have done for several years now. Like you said I use the fermenter to pump out, wash and return. This is not an oxygenation issue. in fact just the opposite - wine needs to be able to breathe banged up for months in stainless steel does not allow for this I have only found improvement since I have been pumping.
The one brilliant thing about these is they are one tank for all sizes. You can remove a glass, a bottle or a keg full and just seal it up again. 10 seconds to seal it up – marvellous!. The seal can sometimes be a bit temperamental if you get one we can cover that later (I say that because you not use the dry airlock they are supplied with they are PITA) They are best used with a wine pump (which does not have to be more than 20 quid). I have already posted details of it somewhere - it is very good for glass carboys too :-) I went the extra mile and I have calibrated my fermenters, press and floating lid tanks to all be the same batch size. (50 cases)

Carbon dioxide cover gas – I use carbon dioxide & mixed gas. Carbon dioxide does dissolve into your wine, if you have your wine outside it is cooler it will absorb more carbon dioxide - this does fly directly in the face of the degassing argument?
For long term storage it is not an option for me because it requires weekly checks and I have a tendency to leave your wine regularly for 4 to 6 weeks in between checks (at least) sothis could easily result in massive wine spoilage/loss.


Degassing – I would not worry about degassing - one thing at a time. I appreciate there is a lot of following for degassing, I personally think this is a kit/country wine phenomena but is something I have never ever found necessary in all my time making grape wine. ( .... and stands back and waits for the bang !!)

Natural yeast – IMO this is not a gassing issue. You have not sulphited, and the wine has woken up. Very common with a traditional Italian method. very common this time of the year when nature wakes up. There is a lot of following for wild yeast, I have had much success with it and it is the way many commercial vineyards get a bit of extra complexity. Did you remove all the stalks or did everything go in? What size is the carboy you are using currenty 10 gallon?


I am attracted by the simplicity and non-interventionism This is where I started, with 25 cases of grapes and one Italian friend. What I have done since a sprinkle a little (maybe a smidge more) English science over the traditional Italian method - I would describe my winemaking method as patting mother nature to make sure he goes in the right direction. sorry chaps I'm not a numbers man - calibrating your hydrometer indeed Taste buds that's what you need! After all the hydrometer is no going to be drinking it is it .... okay I'll get my coat!!

I hope some of this has helped......

[lockwood1956]

There are many differing ideas about all of the above

If it works for you it works for you.

I have a totally different take on the degassing issue and it works for me

as for hydrometers? if you are going to use it make sure it is calibrated

winemaking is a broad church and there is room for all in the congregation.

The one change that will makew the biggest difference is switching to a reliable yeast strain

hope that helps

regards
bob

[lockwood1956]

and for the record.......properly degassed wine tastes quite different

I will happily demonstrate at grapefest

[Cellar_Rat]

^^ and what Bob said !!

The one change that will makew the biggest difference is switching to a reliable yeast strain