Funky Sangiovese

[marcovin]

Hi,
I have a batch of Sangiovese that is a persistent misbehavior.
Shortly after primary fermentation I noticed a funky scum film developing on the wine, this was before the wine had a chance to go into Malo SG was around 0.993. Also a smell of rotten eggs so immediately alarm bells went off. I then exposed the wine to copper for 24 hours, sulphited at 4g in 25L and added a teaspoon of Tannin for added protection. As the wine has been kept in my garage at relatively low temp it was ok for a couple of weeks. I have since brought it back into the house which is 20 degrees and all of a sudden this funky film is developing once again and the rotten egg smell is back.
To be honest I am stumped as to what to do next bar upping the sulphite level so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[lockwood1956]

4g of sulphite....As in powder? thats a hefty dose I wouldn't add any more at this point

Some extra details will enable us to help a little more.

How did you process the grapes?
How long on the gross lees before you racked?
what yeast did you use?
what was the fermentation temperature?
did you use nutrient, and what type if you did?

When you say rotten eggs, do you mean a funky eggy smell like the insode of a sandwich box containing egg sandwiches, or the type of smell that makes you gag when you smell it and want to barf?

A scum film on the surface is not a good thing ususally, how much headspace was above the wine at this point?

regards
Bob

[ToulouseLePlot]

Utter amateur here, don't weigh my ideas highly but: scum on surface - vinegar puts a mat of cellulose on surface, but that's hard to achieve in hostile conditions and 4g of sulphite (assuming it's pure Na or K and not cut with chalk to make it 2.5g=1 campden tablet, nor 20 years old) would make that unlikely. What about flor? That needs air on racking doesn't it? Have you splashed it a lot through a few rackings?

[NorthernWiner]

Is your wine topped up? Your description of a surface film sounds suspiciously like an infection called candida mycoderma. This generally happens if there is too much headspace in the container.

Treatment may be possible: http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-54334...gMycoderma.pdf

[Cellar_Rat]

Indeed - headspace and I am concerned about cool.
The infection may have started by prolonged exposure in a slow fermentation.
Red needs a bit of heat (28-32c). In talking to people this year I have noticed quite a few people leaving wines 'open' fermenting for quite a while at 15- 20c. Not ideal.
Further I have a unsubstantiated theory that slow ferments need more nutrient.

Young wine treated with 10-15g powder per HL equates to about 50-75 mg/SO2/litre. So 4g/25l is good first dose like Bob said 'no more' - was this your first dose?

I am thinking nutirent and/or copper - when did you start it ? How close is it to completing alcoholic fermentation ?

[marcovin]

Thanks chaps.

Here is the timeline of events:

So, I initially had 3 batches of Sangiovese Sa1, Sa2, and Sa3 started primary on the 14th September.

SG was 1.071
Sa1 and Sa3 were inoculated with RC212
Sa2 was inoculated with Gervin 2

I reallly struggled to maintain a good fermentation temperature I had bought a few aquarium heaters but they struggled to maintain the temperature correctly or they got way to high and I had to intervene.

Based on previous repsonses and the fact I used no nutrient at all through the process, I guess that, combined with a persistent low temperature has caused the problem. See below.

Start temperature was 19 degrees.

14th PM 15th AM 15th PM 16th AM 16th PM 17th AM 18th
Sa1 - 21 20 22 16 24 20 24
Sa2 - 21 21 22 18 30 23 21
Sa3 - 25 22 23 17 24 28 24

SG on the 18th was 1.000 in two of the batches and 1.005 in another.

Another issue I was concerned with at the time but couldn't really do much about was I didn't actually press and get it under air lock until the 21st. I had a similar issue with a batch of Tempranillo but the action of sulphiting and tannin seems to have worked. I may have sloshed it about too much during pressing as well which no doubt did not help.

On the 26th Sep I racked one of the batches off the gross lees as I had noticed the film on the surface and the rotten egg smell (yes it smells like egg sandwiches in a lunch box), the pH was 3.7 so I added 4g sulphite in a sterilised 25L Glass Carbouy. On the 7th Oct I exposed both batches (the 3 original batches were combined due to availability of appropriate carbouys) to a copper rod for 24 hours and at this time added a tsp of wine tannin. I racked the second batch off the gross lees on the 7th Oct.

That's about it and both were sitting in my garage at variable low temperature until the 15th Oct when it was brought back into the house, shortly after this is when I noticed the scum beginning to return.

One other observation I have is regarding the batch of Tempranillo and Sangiovese, when I added the wine tannin to the Tempranillo it fizzed so vigorously it flowed over the neck of the carbouy all over the floor, the Sangiovese hardly fizzed at all?

Many thanks

[marcovin]

iPhone 016.jpgiPhone 017.jpgiPhone 018.jpg

[SiSandrine]

Hi Marcovin,

From reading below and from what you say about the rotten egg smell persisting it sounds to me like you have left the wine on its gross lees too long (5 days in one case and 16 in another if I have understood correctly). This is too long, quite often after pressing if you let settle for 12-24 hours and then rack again you can avoid many Hydrogen Sulphide (H2S) problems if that is what you have (my theory). I must admit the film is throwing me a little but I would have thought this is possible with H2S issues too.
If the rotten egg smell persists, if my H2S theory is correct, then I think you will have to treat it again. When this has happened to me in the past, I found this site to be of great use. http://www.bcawa.ca/winemaking/h2s.htm. Treating with copper alone may not cut it and you may have to use Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) first.
If fermentation is complete - from what you say below it is - don't add any nutrient. This won't help now and will potentially cause you other problems. As you found with the Tempranillo, aerating when you are at the slightly eggy stage can actually be a good thing as it can help balance out the levels of oxygen in the wine. H2S issues like this are caused by all the dead yeast and decaying grape pulp slowly rotting away in the wine often known as "reduction" though I think chemists will say that is not technically correct. Adding sulphite at this stage doesn't necessarily help and can actually make matters worse. Again if it goes past the early stage aerating the wine/must won't help and you will need to treat with vitamin C and/or copper. A word of caution don't over aerate or you could get smelly and oxidised wine.
If the rotten egg smell is gone then ignore this and we can examine another angle of attack. Others may have some more experienced thoughts?

PS. Fermentation temperatures are not too bad, RC212 is pretty nutrient hungry so they may have got a little stressed at the beginning but it sounds to me like your fermentation timetable was OK btw (5 days to more or less dry).

[marcovin]

Well there was me thinking I'd got rid of my Sangiovese problem, after following the advice above, admittedly without the ascorbic acid element, I thought it had solved the problem. It seems i now have a slightly different intruding organism in my wine and I would welcome any thoughts and/or advice.

After a period out in the cold for stabalisation purposes it has been back in my warmer 19 degrees utility room / winery and I have noted these have appeared in the past few days (see photos).

As always, thanks in advance. iPhone 049.jpgiPhone 050.jpgiPhone 051.jpgiPhone 052.jpg

[Cellar_Rat]

The Italians call this 'bloom'. I did something aboout this on a course, but cant remember the detail now except it is nothing to worry about (i have had it). It is a surface condition.

Rack it away.

[marcovin]

Thanks, it's strange that I made up 5 different types of wine yet it's only the Sangiovese that is having trouble. Racking time again.

Happy new year.


Marc

[Cellar_Rat]

Probably worth checking the sulphite levels too.

[ToulouseLePlot]

Ummm, Brian, is there an easy way to test sulphite levels? I've tried watching the you-tube from an old winefest about 20 times, but can't stay focussed more than 90 seconds. There's a flaw or two in my personality which this exploits. Is there a Ladybird Book on Janet and John Test Sulphite?

[Cellar_Rat]

... but can't stay focussed more than 90 seconds.

Perhaps you should have your PC looked at

[marcovin]

And there was me thinking I'd be able to avoid turning my new winery into laboratory!!! It's definitely worth learning to do accurately I'm sure.


Marc