Elderberry & Blackberry Wine

[ms67]

I can't remember where i first saw the thread and suggestion, from Bob, about mixing these two berries. But as its Bob, and as i haven't tried a recipe from this forum as a template for a wine, i thought it was about time.

I recently started a straight-up blackberry wine, following the very pleasing results i had with it last year. So this will make for an excellent comparison brew ... and i'm confident that the advice comes from a good place!

So far all i have done is strip, sort and wash the elderb's (freshly foraged 2.7kg), put them in my VF, added the same amount of blackberries, washed and frozen, and campden in a couple of litres of water. Tomorrow evening i'll rummage through my yeasts and decide what to use (a pretty limited choice but i'm moving the the direction of trying varieties). Also acid additions (got C, M and T), and amount of sugar. I may do almost exactly the same as with the blackberry wine - for the most straightforward and easy to understand comparison. Or i may go a new route, which may make a better wine, but would ruin the comparison angle which basically comes down to .... will me and my better half like it more than a straight blackberry or less. Or maybe its equally likeable but different. Hmmmm talking myself into the comparison already!

Please chime in with your thoughts. If i read it before i get it going properly then you could influence my brew!

Cheers for the inspiration and template Bob

[james]

blackberry & elderberry is far better than either blackberry or elderberry on there own. At 1kg of each fruit, pulp fermented for 4 days, you get a healthy rich red.

Three things that I've tried and found to be good:
1) instead of 1kg blackberries, use 500g blackberries and 500g mixed soft fruit (a frozen bag of summer fruits from the supermarket containing raspberries, redcurrents, blackcurrents, blackberries and cherries), with pectic enzyme added
2) add a mashed banana
3) Add some grape concentrate or a litre of grape juice.


Following on from Bob's suggestions about late additions of fruit (see the two threads here and here), I've started reading his suggested book on the topic (Bill Smith's "Award Winning Wines: professional Methods for Amature Winemakers"). This suggests (using elderberry and blackberry as an example) that you first undertake a rapid fermentation of the sugars and fruit juices making a few litres of strong wine, then towards the end of the fermentation, you add the fruit. By doing this, the volatile flavours and esters are not volatilised, resulting in a fresher, more fruity wine and due to the higher alcohol content a more rapid extraction of colour and flavour can occur, allowing for a shorter pulp fermentation and consequently the tannins can be controlled easier, thus the wine is palatable at a younger age.

I'm very tempted to give this ago this year. Its all explianed by Bob in the threads linked above.

[lockwood1956]

I'm really looking forward to those particular experiments too.....

but for the bog standard version....2lbs elderberries and 2 lbs blackberries works nicely....sugar to SG 1.080. a little (i.e. 5-10gm gallon) of oak at primary fermentation stage adds a little something too)

regards
Bob

[gwing]

Blending blackberry and elderberry

If you are not sure if the boss will prefer the eb/bb mix to straight blackberry you could try blending some mixes of straight elderberry and straight blackberry in a glass and see what the preffered mix is (assuming you have a straight elderberry?). Our preference was a 3:2:1 mix for elderberry, blackberry and elderflower but proportions will vary both according to taste and how concentrated you make each wine.

I believe there is a synergy in acid contents between elberberry and blackberry so that, once you have an idea what you want, it is a lot better to mix the fruit and ferment them together - but its easier to initially taste a few blends than make a huge number of wines to find your preferences . Or you can just use the straight 1:1 ratio sugested above and which should give good results.

[ms67]

Thanks for the thoughts folks. keep em coming.

I think i'm going to leave the late additions angle for at least a year, and learn from others who are more ready than i am to try this one and feedback to us on the results.

I always especially appreciate the comments that are mindful of tastes being a personal thing (tho i do recognise that most folks realise this and probably don't mention it cos it seems like stating the obvious). With that in mind gwing i liked the idea of blending and will possibly go down this route when my present brews reach drinking stage. i don't have a straight elderberry yet, but i'm hoping for another bountiful forage soon with that aim. Very interesting too about putting some elderflower in the brewing or blending mix. My better half said she could taste hints of elderflower in the berries we picked.

James I think the additions of soft fruits and banana angle will have to wait some time until i have laid some less complicated groundwork, (i reckon you are way ahead of me on the berry wine making). Basically finding what ratio of bberry/eberry works for us. Hopefully this year's efforts will go someway towards that, then next year try the late additions, perhaps the year after try the soft fruits etc. The straight blackberry was the best wine i've made so far, so anythng on a par with this, or better, will be a great result and as a consequence i'm not in a hurry to take on much experimentation at this stage.

Bob, i'm going to aim for 1080-1090, finally getting around to fine tuning balancing my wines. One of my blackberry brews was 1085.

A question for all those experienced in berry brews. i have fermented my blackberries on the pulp for 5 days (upper end of berry's recommended 4-5 days). Berry recommends 3 days for elderberrys. So the combo presents me with a question. How long on the pulp? what does longer for elderberry do (too much tannin?), and what does shorter for blackberry do (not enough flavour?). I wasn't organised like i have been with other mixes, so all the fruit is together and not separated into 2 muslin bags.

Cheers muchly everyone for your tips, thoughts, advice, comments, inspiration

[james]

James I think the additions of soft fruits and banana angle will have to wait some time until i have laid some less complicated groundwork, (i reckon you are way ahead of me on the berry wine making).

I doubt it!
It came about becuase I was a new dad last year & didnt get a chance to go out picking blackberries as much as I'd like (other stuff like nappies & sleep deprivation got in the way...), so I just substituted & found it to be a nice taste.
I take your point about the banana. Doing it correctly, you should make one change at a time to really understand what each change does.
But a banana makes very little alteration, other than adding body.

A question for all those experienced in berry brews. i have fermented my blackberries on the pulp for 5 days (upper end of berry's recommended 4-5 days). Berry recommends 3 days for elderberrys. So the combo presents me with a question. How long on the pulp? what does longer for elderberry do (too much tannin?), and what does shorter for blackberry do (not enough flavour?). I wasn't organised like i have been with other mixes, so all the fruit is together and not separated into 2 muslin bags.

Interesting idea about the two seperate muslin bags, I'd not thought about that. I've previously just plumped for 4 days.

Your exactly right about the consequences. Here is a technical note written Virginia Tech . It descibes a process called "cold soaking". Have a look at the figure 1, half way down the page. It shows how the important stuff in grapes comes out during maceration and fermentation. You can see that the colours and the anthrocyanins (which are also colours) come out quite quickly (they're water soluble), but the tannins come out slower . You can also see that colours & anthrocyannis actually reduce after a certain point, but the tannins still increase.
Tannins are more soluble in higher alcohols, so they prefferentially come out into your must later in the pulp fermentation.

So the aim is to get enough colour and flavour over without getting too much tannin

(cold soaking, btw, is when you rest the crushed fruit in a cold sterile environment to extract colours and flavours prior to the start of fermentation)

[lockwood1956]

I take your point about the banana. Doing it correctly, you should make one change at a time to really understand what each change does.
But a banana makes very little alteration, other than adding body.

I have used banana syrup before, boiling the bananas and then just using the juice, it adds body and is a great clearing agent

It descibes a process called "cold soaking". Have a look at the figure 1, half way down the page. It shows how the important stuff in grapes comes out during maceration and fermentation. You can see that the colours and the anthrocyanins (which are also colours) come out quite quickly (they're water soluble), but the tannins come out slower . You can also see that colours & anthrocyannis actually reduce after a certain point, but the tannins still increase.
Tannins are more soluble in higher alcohols, so they prefferentially come out into your must later in the pulp fermentation.

So the aim is to get enough colour and flavour over without getting too much tannin

(cold soaking, btw, is when you rest the crushed fruit in a cold sterile environment to extract colours and flavours prior to the start of fermentation)

cold soaked the grapes last year (for 5 days)and it produced fabulous colour I placed plastic containers of frozen water in the must, and monitored temps regularly, also placed a blanket of CO2 gas on top of the must while it cold soaked, using a co2 tank (its heavier than air so sat on top protecting everything (had a tarp over the fermenting bin too)


are you up for grapes this year James?

[james]

I'd love to Bob, but I havent got the capacity (& I very much doubt I'd be allowed any more space...).
My demijohns will soon start filling with 8 gallons of cider and 5 galls elderberry/soft fruit.

[lockwood1956]

Well you are welcome to come along just the same (this applies to all) even if you arent taking grapes, its still a great way to meet other winemakers and talk "wine" and then later in the day, to meet other winemakers and talk rubbish, then even later in the day, to talk absolute garbage and have a kebab

[lockwood1956]

Sorry ms67.....



meanwhile...back on topic....Elderberries and Blackberries

[ms67]

Thanks again James and Bob. I'll look up the links you posted, they sound like good stuff. I prefer to ferment at cooler temperatures, in the winter i use a room in the house with the radiator off. its chilly, without being cold, slows down the fermentation. Perhaps in future i'll freeze all my elderberries and ferment mixed berry brews in the winter, slower ferment, less alcohol in the early stages, less tannin extraction from eberries but allows pulp fermentation to go for 5 days with the blackberries.

I used 2 bags for my green tea and ginger wine. Keeping tea and ginger stuff separate. worked really well.

The story of not having enough for a brew is something i've come across from time to time. i did a mixed orange and blackberry last year because of that very problem, its nice stuff too, tho very light - a little refinement needed.

catch you all later, the tide is high soon and the weather is okay so we're off to catch some surfing!

[ms67]

Well the surf wasn't up to anything at all and we didn't fancy a wetsuit clad swim,unlike some locals who we stopped and talked with. They gave us the low down on the local surfing, when conditions (wind & tide) are optimal. Was good info and made the trip worthwhile, actually confirming the location we had guessed was best. But the tide/wind info was great stuff and not quite what we expected.

But wine is why we are here so .... the elderberry & blackberry is underway properly now. OG 1090. only 2.6kg of sugar added to achieve that for a 3 gallon brew. Sauternes yeast; makes for most straightforward comparison with the straight blackberry wine, which is a repeat of last years wine that made us very happy indeed.

The next lot of berry wines i'll make will be a little trip down my continuing novice yeast experimentation path. I have vintners harvest MA33 and a gervin GV2 (red label).

[ms67]

time is coming soon to remove the fruit and a pointer or two would be useful

1: there's a thick mat (2-3 inches) of plump looking elderberries - and i suspect some broken up blackberries too - ontop of my brew, which i have been stirring in daily. When i come to straining them off is it good, bad or indifferent to squeeze the bag a little? should i just let it drip?

its the first time i've used elderberries and its often bad practice to squeeze pulp, but i dunno about these little guys.

2: i've heard that you can use the berries a second time. Is this true? does it make a nice brew? will the result be like a rose or not worth doing unless i also add other juices (cartons?) or the blackberries in the freezer? dunno whether i'll do it, that partly depends on what i hear back from you all.

any tips and/or thoughts most welcome

[lockwood1956]

OK

my thoughts......

just let the bag drip...dont squeeze

take the pulp, and make up a batch about half the size of the original one, add grape juice or concentrate and sugar to about 1.070 , add plenty of nutrient, and ferment a second time (no yeast necessary) and you should end up with a nice rose, at around 10% abv

take out the pulp at around 1.020 (and just dunk the bag....dont squeeze)

[ms67]

cheers muchly, i think i may give that a go, its nice to have a rose about.