Fermenting Elderberries question

[robwrx]

I read somewhere that Elderberries must be heated/boiled prior to fermenting as they contain sambunigrin which is toxic.

Is this true?

I was hoping to make an Elderberry and Blackberry wine without heating the fruit.

Rob

[waggoner]

I'll be interested to know this too,,as i've going to do a blackberry and elderberry wine too. got 15lbs of b/berries and 6lb of elderberies and 3 lbs of sloes, enough for 5 gallons i guess.

[kampervan]

unripe berries and stalks contain poision. so remove from stalks and make sure to put inwater to get unripe berries out( they float)

[fatbloke]

unripe berries and stalks contain poision. so remove from stalks and make sure to put inwater to get unripe berries out( they float)

Actually, the entire tree/bush is toxic, the only part that's not, well I suppose more reduced, is ripe berries.

A bit of research will confirm that the berries do indeed contain sambunigrin, and its also broken down by heat. I suspect that you'd also find that generally, the worst symptoms would be "bad guts (sensitivity dependant......probably)."

So I suppose its a case of either steam extraction or simmering with a small amount of water, which could then be cooled and treated with pectolase......

[SiSandrine]

Until I got my steam juicer I pulp fermented cold and drunk a reasonable amount of this elderberry wine and been OK so far. Of course past performance is not necessarily a guide to the future...

[robwrx]

Thanks for the replies guys. I am still not sure whether to boil the elderberries or not. I would prefer not to and I did sort the unripe berries by washing them all and fishing out the floaters and Sisandrine did seem pretty normal when I met him at Grapefest

I might try two batches, one without boiling and one with, just in case.

[fatbloke]

Thanks for the replies guys. I am still not sure whether to boil the elderberries or not. I would prefer not to and I did sort the unripe berries by washing them all and fishing out the floaters and Sisandrine did seem pretty normal when I met him at Grapefest

I might try two batches, one without boiling and one with, just in case.

Don't forget Rob, with red/black fruit, they often benefit from heat processing, whereas green/white fruit doesn't as it will often display a cooked flavour.

This link just about explains it, as I understand it and while it all sounds rather dramatic, I do understand that generally, if you're going to react, then it's basically bad guts. Though as with anything, there will be people who might be more sensitive to it than others and as it does seem to be generally accepted that sambunigrin does have the ability to display symptoms of toxicity, I'd have thought it'd be prudent to heat treat the berries.

[gordonmull]

Hmm. Maybe to be watched if there's anything underlying like a prediposition to tachycardia, in my case. I cry for the days when I could drink coffee by the jug!! Think a light simmer for 15 mins will be carried out, especially as I have a few bits of stalk in there.

I think with everything taken from the wild you've got to ask yourself - do we normally eat it? If not, then why not? I've eaten the odd palmful of elderberries every autumn and never found I wanted any more than that. They're nice at first but I quickly sicken of them. But - to my knowledge - no-one grows elderberries commercially, you don't see them in tesco, asda, local greengorcers or market, them or their juice. That might be commerce or it's just not a good crop to eat/drink.

Its not to say that with proper preparation we can't use stuff but tis' useful to know stuff like this. Bob - I know I'm a fairly new face around here but I'd make as a suggestion to have a "Ray Mears" section of the site (seriously - I can't stand that guy but you know what I mean) where we could hopefully centralise information on wild ingredient scavenging and preparation.

[Duffbeer]

Gordon,
Martina (medpretzel) did a very informative thread regarding the yay's and nay's on flowers and herbs in winemaking which included a list of DO NOT'S, It's somewhere in the winemakers area.

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2092

There we go.

[Canonmillbilly]

But - to my knowledge - no-one grows elderberries commercially, you don't see them in tesco, asda, local greengorcers or market, them or their juice.

Hi Gordon,

I've spotted elderberry as an ingredient in some cordials recently.

Typically things like blackcurrant and other dark berry drinks. Usually the elder is a 'minor' ingredient.

Can't remember the names of the drinks - I think I've seen them in health food shops selling the more expensive 'pure juice' cordials.

[fatbloke]

I'm sure I've read at least one post from Bob, that alluded to elderberry juice being available in Germany.

Plus, just because its not regularly eaten/drunk here, doesn't mean its unsafe. Take berbaris berries....... eastern Europe makes a jam type spread from them, yet we don't touch them normally.......

[winemanden]

Hi, I recently bought dried cranberries in Holland & Barrats 1p sale. Guess what, the ingredients listed were cranberries as you'd expect, and elderberry juice flavouring. How the juice was made I don't know but the fruit tasted great.

I've been making Elderberry wine for almost 50 years, mostly cold ferment, with no ill effects. Incidentally, they sell a concentrated solution of elderberry juice in Israel as a natural defence against colds and flu. Hot elderberry wine and a couple of aspirins just before going to bed works great to sweat out a cold.

I didn't have time to pick many this year as we were going away on holiday. I added them to some red grapes I had been given, just enough to make an 11 Litre brew. I did a 2nd 1 gallon run with the pulp. The three of us are maturing well.

Regards to all, Winemanden.

[gordonmull]

Gordon,
Martina (medpretzel) did a very informative thread regarding the yay's and nay's on flowers and herbs in winemaking which included a list of DO NOT'S, It's somewhere in the winemakers area.

http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2092

There we go.

A good informative read there but it's not really out there and obvious. Since there is a lot of country wine makers out there, and beginners without great experince of gathering from the wild, it might be useful. My botany's ok so I'd be glad to help, photos, descriptions, research etc.

Hi Gordon,

I've spotted elderberry as an ingredient in some cordials recently.

Typically things like blackcurrant and other dark berry drinks. Usually the elder is a 'minor' ingredient.

Can't remember the names of the drinks - I think I've seen them in health food shops selling the more expensive 'pure juice' cordials.

Never even seen it as a minor ingredient, but interesting to know. The only product I've seen with elderberries is the carn o' mhor wine. Not bad actually for those who haven't tried. Porty.

I'm sure I've read at least one post from Bob, that alluded to elderberry juice being available in Germany.

Plus, just because its not regularly eaten/drunk here, doesn't mean its unsafe. Take berbaris berries....... eastern Europe makes a jam type spread from them, yet we don't touch them normally.......

From the images I've seen on google I can't really identify berbaris as something I know in the wild. I've seen similar in gardens as ornamentals but unfortunately there seems to be quite a variety in berry shapes, branch structure etc. on the image search. Most of my learning about nature hails from the west coast of scotland. Does it grow in the UK elsewhere?

On a similar note no one seems to use sea buckthorn, depite its incredicble nutritional value. I'd hate to work harvesting it though! The last time I saw it I thought about going back to the car for a carrier (wine! ) picked half dozen berries and gave up. Too many spines and the they seem to be very reluctant to come off the stalks, just squashing in your hand.

God, they're sour. But nice, in a sherbetty sort of way.

i suppose though, you don't see sloes in many fruit punnets, nor wild strawbs or rasps. Might just come down to difficulty of harvest and processing that we don't see elder very often.

I've been making Elderberry wine for almost 50 years, mostly cold ferment, with no ill effects. Incidentally, they sell a concentrated solution of elderberry juice in Israel as a natural defence against colds and flu. Hot elderberry wine and a couple of aspirins just before going to bed works great to sweat out a cold.

Do you separate stalks and green berries out of interest?

[winemanden]

Cold ferment

Yes, I separate the stalks by scrubbing them over a wire cooling rack placed on top of the bucket into a mild sulphite solution, chuck the big stalks, ignore the tiny ones still attached. I scoop off the green ones that float and discard. Transfer the blacks to a mesh bag and ferment on the pulp.
Heat treatment, or freezing, either way is OK. This year I didn't have time so they went straight to the primary. Tastes good so far.

Regards to all, Winemanden.

[malcmackenzie]

Thanks for the replies guys. I am still not sure whether to boil the elderberries or not. I would prefer not to and I did sort the unripe berries by washing them all and fishing out the floaters and Sisandrine did seem pretty normal when I met him at Grapefest

I might try two batches, one without boiling and one with, just in case.

I have learned that it is realy easy to get far too much juice out of elderberries and finnish up with a very 'tart' flavour so I would suggest C J J Berry's recipe for elderberry wine where he boils and he states he does this to get less juice out and different style of juice.

As for poison the wood of thee tree is poisionous and when the tree grows in summer the new growth leading to the flowers is poisionous so you just take teh flower heads not the twigs.

Natures version of cyanide I read on the web. Although milder.

Malc