Why does everyone say it's rocket fuel?

[Cellar_Rat]

I doubt there's anyone who could give a complete chemical composition of an alcoholic beverage......

I wasn't going to comment - but Simons right - This hobby seems to attract chemists I know 4 now, that I have meet through winemaking - and prolly a few more that have kept it quiet!

TC - gets me far more wasted than kits, cans or the tap......

Turbo cider - supports my theory. Thank you

[Delmonteman]

So if part of the answer is methanol production (gets you more drunk or gives a hot taste?) and that some people see the 'rocket fuel' element as a 'fault' is there a way of reducing its production within country wines?

I think the other point about comparing commercial and homemade rings true also now that I think about it. Whilst I don't compare my wines to commercial ones (I don't drink commercial wine for one thing) it is impossible to stop other people thinking about commercial equivilents when they drink the wine I offer them...

Maybe I should stop calling fermented beverage made from cartons of juice 'wine' just to see if I get a different response...?

[Cellar_Rat]

I think perhaps lowering the starting SG you use so that the wine finishes more around 10-11% rather that 11-13%. 'Hot' is normally an imbalance between Alc & body (by which I mean everything else) - Alc % being too high.

It would also be worth trying frozen juice extract methods (there is alinky somewhere to a very good youtoooby) - this reduces the solids in primary fermentation.

Also the strain of yeast will affect, 'cos after all thats what is producing the methanol. So use (find!!) a low methanol equivalent.

You point about expectations is quite sharp tooo - if you call if wine people pigeon hole it - try serving it from something other than a wine bottle to!

[SiSandrine]

IMHO to avoid rocket fuel taste in "country wines" I think it is a balance and time issue. About 3 years ago I made a super market fruit juice wine using just cartons of juice - apple, grape etc. Every 3 months or so I tried a bottle but got that home made taste, rough taste. A year or so afterwards, I drank the last bottle which I had been putting off as it was not to my taste and I was stunned to discover that it was quite lovely, not at all rocket fuelly or indeed home made. A lot of winemakers give up because of this and because the kit wine advertising promises "ready to drink in 4 weeks" is so wrong. Country wines generally take longer to mature than most wine kits and I would go as far to say as nothing is ready to drink in 4 weeks when the definition of ready to drink is a smooth and pleasant beverage closely resembling wine.

Someone made the point in the earlier posts I think that fruit juice and other wines do not stand up to being 13% and I think very rarely benefit from going beyond 12. This means an initial SG of 1080 fermented to dry at 990 will be about right. With more delicate flavoured fruits I think it should probably be even less.
Recipes have a lot to play here especially for winemakers who do not know the joy of owning and loving a hydrometer - note CJJJJJJ Berry - sugar content is generally too high in his otherwise excellent recipes so if simply followed wines are overly hot.

Grapes - particularly high sugar concentration varieties such as Syrah/Shiraz - have all the other factors which balance out and so can stand up to high alcohol levels in a way that delicate fruits wouldn't at that level of alcohol. I think it is true to say that all fruits are not equal and are difficult to compare in flavour profiles when fermented.

So if you want fruit/country wines that don't taste hot then hold back on the sugar and wait before drinking. Even WN1 benefits from 6 months - year of ageing and is a very different wine at that age than at 3 months.

If you can't wait then simple - make double the quantity of wine - hide half away and accept the rough taste of the wine you drink whilst waiting for the ageing wines to be ready. Ergo the more we make, the better the wine tastes, the better we become at making wine, the more wine we make, etc etc.

[SiSandrine]

Brian got there ahead of me but we are saying the same thing. Sorry didn't see Brians update whilst I was making my post.

[Delmonteman]

Ha ha yes agree with all that and thanks for the responses this is all very interesting and turned into a really fascinating thread... But, just for the sake of clarity, my wines are never over 1.080 and the comments are from other people not me! That said I take the point about age-ing, though I will try offering wines to people under other names... half a teaspoon of honey in a WN1 surely makes it a melomel!

[SiSandrine]

Sure - the answer wasn't aimed at you in particular but adding to the discussion in the thread in general so no criticism intended or meant and I hope none recieved. In fact this may be a good tasting activity at Grapefest this year - a taste-off of fruit wines at differing alcohol levels. I can't wait till Grapefest. Is it Grapefest soon?

[Delmonteman]

No offence taken at all Simon, they are interesting and worthwhile comments I just know I can rule them out in my case...

[Cellar_Rat]

Great minds Eh!

Ditto comments - I wasn't having a pop, just my thoughts & experience.

[Delmonteman]

Great minds Eh!

Ditto comments - I wasn't having a pop, just my thoughts & experience.

No, no, no, I know, I was just trying to make sure we eliminate those variables from the discussion... It's a good point you make about methanol and one I would never have been aware of...

All is well

[gordonmull]

Turbo cider - supports my theory. Thank you

Glad to help, Cellar Rat!

So potentially I'm boozing my face off on extra methanol. Yum yum!

The problem with grabbing a chemical composition of beverages is that they are constantly changing. If a clear wine (or especially mead) tastes one way this month, in another couple of months it will taste different, at least on my timescales. The flavours alone illustrate it. E.g. a cinnamon metheglin i made in August:

4 jars honey boiled with some peppercorns and two sticks of cinnamon. Effect was supposed to be that of "hot potatoes", or cinnamon gobstoppers. Cinnamony and spicey-hot. Didn't work.

Fermented out, cleared, racked.

Tasted crap, rubbery flavour prevalent, no taste of cinnamon

3 months later, bitter, bitter, bitter, no taste of cinnamon

Next month, mellowed, bitter taste gone, cinnamon nose is strong, flavour is weak but present, might be worth bottling for chrimbo

Now, forgot to bottle...brb...slight taste of bitter pepper, mellow, slight cinnamon taste, strong cinnamon nose. Already something that I could easily drink.

I'm teaching Granny to suck eggs here, we all know the flavour constantly changes, therefore the chemistry.

There is so much going on there that I think you'd need more than 4 chemists. But I guess we could have a whipround for a GC-MS and clone Koomber

[Cellar_Rat]

LOL not sure that about cloning, I think we do a lot of apothecary/chemistry here, but I think cloning might be a bit of a stretch!

I often liken wine to meat - particularly game. Fresh is doesn't work, hang it for a few days 'till ripe and enjoy it at its best - before it goes over!! ...and I now this will be a bit controversial, BUT wine like meat NEEDS air. It a moving target all the time.

[Cellar_Rat]

PS - the peppercorn and cinnamon mead sounds YUM. I have not ventured into mead yet.

[gordonmull]

PS - the peppercorn and cinnamon mead sounds YUM. I have not ventured into mead yet.

Nice, but it didn't quite turn out as hoped though. Next time it's going to be cinammon and chilli!