Thread for questions and discussion on new winemaker series

[Duffbeer]

I'm taking a bottle (the last one...EEK) of wine No 1 to Pontefract wine circle tonight, so watch out for reviews of same


oh my...the pressure!

A rather pleasant drop it was too, for the ingredients and ease of making this has to be a winner for any first winemaker. For a wine started a mere 6 weeks ago it was well balanced and so easy to drink, I would even consider entering a dry white table wine contest with it.

[lockwood1956]

cheers dude, yes I'm going to make some more immediately, turned out much better than i could have wanted.

[lockwood1956]

hmmm

wine No two was tasted yesterday and is a little bland, so have ammended the recipe to add extra 1/2 tsp acid and some tannin....

if you have wine ~No 2 on the go, add 1/2 tsp citric acid to it, no matter what stage its at (as long as not bottled)

Dont add the tannin if ferment is allready underway

so have ammended listing to reflect this for future makers

[medpretzel]

I'm taking a bottle (the last one...EEK) of wine No 1 to Pontefract wine circle tonight

ooh, all gone already?

I hope that the next batch will be bigger!

[Aristaeus]

That is it "Ole Ogre, Bobby Big Batch", got it going...not yet? What is the holdup? He needs four hands! (Now is where you make more remarks about my big batches), how does it all start? Tiny Tim says, "More Christmas Pudding Wine please...more please". Your the ogre if you do not hurry the Pudding Wine Bobby.

[Jekteir]

Beginner's Wine Questions

Hi Bob and Co.,

Many thanks indeed for all the information and instructions. I am just embarking on my first winemaking odyssey and have a few questions if you don't mind!

a) Sometimes instructions say to do the primary ferment under a towel or loose lid, instead of with an airlock (and sometimes even sealed). What difference do these choices make?

b) Further to that one, how much of a problem is air in the fermenting bucket/demijohn going to be? I ask this because I have a 5 gal bucket: do I always need to fill this to the brim when fermenting, or can I leave air in the top and make a smaller amount of wine?

c) If campden tablets are used before fermentation, how long do you need to leave between sanitising/sulfer-ising the must, and putting the yeast in? I assume you can't add the tablets after putting in the yeast (until fermentation is over), because if you do, you might kill it/stop the fermentation?

d) I see you talk about topping up with water. Doesn't this weaken the concentration of the wine/make it taste 'watery'? How far can you take this before you need to top up with grape juice to balance it out?

e) Should you always top up whenever there is air between the top of the must and the valve?

f) When taking out must/wine to check the SG, will the brief exposure to air as you remove the cap affect the must/the tested must? Can you just pour the tested must back into the main bucket when done testing?

g) If I am using pressed supermarket 'red grape juice', which is red in the carton (but obviously has no stems/seeds/skins), will I effectively end up with a 'red white wine', i.e. coloured semi-dark red but tastes like white?

i) If I have to fill my whole 5 gal bucket so there's no air (or just want to make more wine than the recipe!), can I simply multiply your juice/water/sugar ratios by the appropriate change in volume to get the same effect? Alternatively, why not use all red grape juice -- because of the expense? Does the water/juice ratio not change the viscosity of the resultant wine?

Many many thanks for all responses to these. I am just about to embark on my second round of purchases (yeast nutrient, citric acid, tannin, siphon tube, funnel, another bucket for racking to/from, campden tablets, VWP, hydrometer, wine fining sachets, corker, corks!), and hope to start actually fermenting in a day or two. I've been unable to firmly establish answers to these few issues though, and don't want to mess it up!

Cheers,

Jek, aka David

[Duffbeer]

Hi David and welcome to the forum.

a/ A loose towel or lid is recommended at the start of fermentation as the yeast needs oxygen to survive, the cover is to merely protect it from air born nasties and flies. Some kits recommend fitting an airlock from the start, I can only presume they have worked out that sufficient oxygen in the juice and remainder in the vessel is sufficient for the yeast to survive.

b/ The size of your fermenter doesn't matter for the early days of fermentation, but as the ferment slows and less co2 given off then it becomes a problem, to try and simplify, oxygen is the wines friend at the start but then becomes the enemy at the end, once the specific gravity drops to 1.020 here or there it's time to protect from oxygen by reducing the airspace and fitting an airlock.

c/ A period of 24 hours from sulphiting (campden) a must should be allowed before pitching the yeast. Sulphite will stun the yeast but won't kill it.

d/ Topping up with water is generally OK provided the airspace isn't too big, if there is a large airspace to be topped up then a wine of a similar type is best. As you gain experience you'll find little ways of not having to top up too much, such as yeast choice, making extra in a small side fermenter, reducing losses at racking etc.

e/ Yes always keep topped up to generally 1 inch 2 cm below airlock bung, unless your at the early stages of fermentation, then a little airspace is required to allow for foaming.

f/ Provided your trial jar and hydrometer are clean then yes pour the sample back, also a short period of exposure will not be a problem.

g/ Supermarket red grape juice should give the effect of a light red, the lack of tannin from the skins will prevent it being any more substantial.

h/ To increase to 5 gallon then yes multiply the ratio by 5 apart from the yeast as 1 sachet is sufficient for 1 to 5 gall. The addition of water to juice in this recipe is to make this an early drinking wine, but experimentation is down to the individual.

Phew that was some first post!!!

[lockwood1956]

what Karl said

[Duffbeer]

Hehee cheapscate come on Bob more detail.

[StockeyDAW]

Hi David and welcome to the forum.

a/ A loose towel or lid is recommended at the start of fermentation as the yeast needs oxygen to survive, the cover is to merely protect it from air born nasties and flies. Some kits recommend fitting an airlock from the start, I can only presume they have worked out that sufficient oxygen in the juice and remainder in the vessel is sufficient for the yeast to survive.

b/ The size of your fermenter doesn't matter for the early days of fermentation, but as the ferment slows and less co2 given off then it becomes a problem, to try and simplify, oxygen is the wines friend at the start but then becomes the enemy at the end, once the specific gravity drops to 1.020 here or there it's time to protect from oxygen by reducing the airspace and fitting an airlock.

c/ A period of 24 hours from sulphiting (campden) a must should be allowed before pitching the yeast. Sulphite will stun the yeast but won't kill it.

d/ Topping up with water is generally OK provided the airspace isn't too big, if there is a large airspace to be topped up then a wine of a similar type is best. As you gain experience you'll find little ways of not having to top up too much, such as yeast choice, making extra in a small side fermenter, reducing losses at racking etc.

e/ Yes always keep topped up to generally 1 inch 2 cm below airlock bung, unless your at the early stages of fermentation, then a little airspace is required to allow for foaming.

f/ Provided your trial jar and hydrometer are clean then yes pour the sample back, also a short period of exposure will not be a problem.

g/ Supermarket red grape juice should give the effect of a light red, the lack of tannin from the skins will prevent it being any more substantial.

h/ To increase to 5 gallon then yes multiply the ratio by 5 apart from the yeast as 1 sachet is sufficient for 1 to 5 gall. The addition of water to juice in this recipe is to make this an early drinking wine, but experimentation is down to the individual.

Phew that was some first post!!!

Great response DB and Bob. I also think that David is also kind of missing the difference between a primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter. The secondary fermenter is the place for the top ups and it is there that we want to keep the air from coming in contact with the must - that is the reason for the air lock. The great concentration of CO2 during the primary ferment keeps much of the air at bay - it is the twice daily stirring of the primary ferment that will introduce much of the oxygen necessary at that time. You want to always make sure that the primary fermenter is of sufficient size to contain the liquid (must), the displacement as a result of the fruit bags and a necessary 3-5 inches(7.6-12.7cm) at the top to manage any possible overflows during the ferment and allowing for the stirring procedure. Cheers Hope this is of some help - my opinion. DAW

[Duffbeer]

Great response DB and Bob. I also think that David is also kind of missing the difference between a primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter. The secondary fermenter is the place for the top ups and it is there that we want to keep the air from coming in contact with the must - that is the reason for the air lock. The great concentration of CO2 during the primary ferment keeps much of the air at bay - it is the twice daily stirring of the primary ferment that will introduce much of the oxygen necessary at that time. You want to always make sure that the primary fermenter is of sufficient size to contain the liquid (must), the displacement as a result of the fruit bags and a necessary 3-5 inches(7.6-12.7cm) at the top to manage any possible overflows during the ferment and allowing for the stirring procedure. Cheers Hope this is of some help - my opinion. DAW

Yep good point DAW, primary vessel needs to be a bucket / tub, to allow for stirring and for pulp fermenting to allow room for the cap to form...airspace not an issue.
Secondary vessel needs to be topped up and air contact to a minimum ie a demijohn / carboy, with airlock fitted...airspace a problem.

But also remember David the advice in the starter wines is sound as they are started and finished in a d/j, try not to confuse yourself with too much detail at the start.

[lockwood1956]

Great answers Karl and Daw, I knew there was a reason I wanted you guys to be moderators..


Yes David if you follow the new winemakers series through, it will hopefully build all the basic skills you need as a winemaker....


good point on the bucket being big enough Daw....I think I need to Make just that point in wine No 3 pulp ferment, and I don't think I did....off to do that now

[Jekteir]

Thanks all for the helpful responses, and especially Karl for the reciprocal level of detail! I really had no expectation for such a swift set of replies!

I think I will try multiplying the starter recipe to my container size, but probably increase the proportion of juice and also throw in some tannin at the beginning to make a bit of a heavier wine.

I now have a 5 gal bucket with lid, and a 5 gal 'barrel'-like thing with a bung and airlock stuck in the top. So I guess I will do the primary ferment in the bucket, either with the lid just resting on the top, or with a towel (that I've just finished running through the washer+dryer, to sterilise it a bit), and stir twice a day. I was thinking about a starting SG of 1.080, maybe. The temperature there moves between 60F-70F night/day, which I think should be OK?

I'm surprised you say that the must should be moved to the secondary at 1.020 - that sounds like it would be later than 2 days in, if the wine usually stops around 1 or 0.990! Incidentally, between the primary and secondary, no racking occurs, right? Everything gets moved?

Then I'd stick it in the barrel (i.e. secondary), make sure it was topped up near to the bung, and monitor the SG starting a few days/week later. When the SG either stabilised or got low enough that I was satisfied with the alcohol content+taste, I'd rack it to the bucket, clear out the barrel's dregs, then rack it back to the barrel and sulphite it. I guess a day after that I would start employing measures to fine it if necessary, regulate the acidity and sweetness if needed, rack it when clear enough, then leave for a week in the cold to stabilise before racking into bottles.

I hope my plan doesn't sound too foolish/ambitious/misguided!

[Duffbeer]

Just to be helpfull with answers here David, what wine are you making ? supermarket juice or fermenting a fruit pulp ? As juice wines generally don't need to change fermenting vessals untill finished, fruit wines need to be strained and transfered at sg 1.020.

[Jekteir]

Ah, to start fairly simply I'm trying a supermarket juice wine. I did rather imagine there'd be little in the way of sediment, except for yeast byproducts of course.

I guess you remove the lees at 1.020 to prevent spoilage at that stage, from too prolonged contact. In my case, I guess I still need to move my mixture from one container to the other after the first couple of days (but the whole mixture) - so that I can remove oxygen from the equation at that stage.

David